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I have no love for Altman - he Altman seems like a (very successful) huckster to me, but I also read the sexual assault allegations as coming from a very mental

I have no love for Altman - he Altman seems like a (very successful) huckster to me, but I also read the sexual assault allegations as coming from a very mentally disturbed person, to the point that I'm not going to use that data point as part of my judgement of him.

mmooss 2y ago
I know nothing about these claims or Altman, but this argument fits the pattern of three commonplace threads that I hope people will notice in these situations: 1) Smearing the attacker: When someone unknown accuses or opposes a powerful public person, a standard response is to smear the accuser's credibility and reputation, creating doubts in onlookers, and causing day-to-day harm and high levels of stress and pressure for the accuser, and even causing danger (threats, doxxing, etc.). Powerful people can control the narrative - through contacts with other powerful people, by buying resources, or just posting on social media to their many followers. Also, powerful people already have a reputation that the accuser has to change, with many invested in believing it (even just as fans). Unknown accusers have no public reputation - often the only thing known is the smears from the powerful public person - and so others can say anything and it will be believable. 2) Mentally disturbed people - even if that part is true - can also be sexually assaulted. In fact, they are often targeted because they are more vulnerable, and you read again and again that accusers tell the vulnerable, 'nobody will believe you'. Let's not make those words true. 3) Sexual assault causes serious mental health issues.
- Garrrrrr 2y ago
  [flagged]
- moonmagick 2y ago
  Statistically, this form of abuse is extremely common. Something like 2-5% of women who have a sibling are sexually abused by them. Sam would have also been a child at this time. My experience of this world, especially SF startup scene, is that most people are mentally ill in some way and some people are just better at hiding it. We can both accept that Sam's sister is a bit ill, this probably did happen, and we probably shouldn't punish adults for the actions of their child selves too harshly. Does that seem ethical and fair?
  - noworriesnate 2y ago
    What harsh punishment are we talking about here? Let's be specific: we should collectively call for him to step down from his role in OpenAI. That is not harsh. OpenAI is extremely influential on our society, and he is probably not a well balanced person.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Who aligns the aligners? Taking Sam Altman's statements about AGI power and timelines seriously (for the sake of discussion), his position as CEO directs more power than all presidents and kings combined. Even if he was widely regarded as being amazing and nobody had a word to say against him right now, the USA has term limits on presidents. Taking him seriously, he should also. -- On this specific claim however, requiring people to step down due to unsubstantiated allegations, without proof, is trivial for his political opponents to take advantage of. And he has many political opponents. The huge problem with such abuse is that it's simultaneously very common and very difficult to actually prove. Both halves of the current situation are independently huge problems: Absent physically surveilling almost every home, I don't know what can even be done about proving who did what. If you could catch everyone… between the fact that this is a topic that gets people lynched so suggesting anything less than prison time is unlikely to be possible, and the estimates moonmagick gave of how many people do that (x4-x10 the current USA prison population), I think it may be literally beyond most national budgets to be able to imprison that many people and they would try anyway.
      - noworriesnate 2y ago
        It's not about proving he did it. This isn't a court of law, it's the court of public opinion. This isn't just deciding whether someone goes to prison, this is deciding who gets to control a big chunk of humanity's future. It's not some random naysayer claiming he did it, it's his own sister. It's very likely he did it, so he should step down. Simple as that.
        ben_w 2y ago
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  Notice that I never said that the claim was false. I said that it would not be a data point that I use to judge Altman. I have no ability to verify, or even guess at the veracity of the claims.

mmooss 2y ago

I know nothing about these claims or Altman, but this argument fits the pattern of three commonplace threads that I hope people will notice in these situations: 1) Smearing the attacker: When someone unknown accuses or opposes a powerful public person, a standard response is to smear the accuser's credibility and reputation, creating doubts in onlookers, and causing day-to-day harm and high levels of stress and pressure for the accuser, and even causing danger (threats, doxxing, etc.). Powerful people can control the narrative - through contacts with other powerful people, by buying resources, or just posting on social media to their many followers. Also, powerful people already have a reputation that the accuser has to change, with many invested in believing it (even just as fans). Unknown accusers have no public reputation - often the only thing known is the smears from the powerful public person - and so others can say anything and it will be believable. 2) Mentally disturbed people - even if that part is true - can also be sexually assaulted. In fact, they are often targeted because they are more vulnerable, and you read again and again that accusers tell the vulnerable, 'nobody will believe you'. Let's not make those words true. 3) Sexual assault causes serious mental health issues.

Garrrrrr 2y ago
[flagged]
moonmagick 2y ago
Statistically, this form of abuse is extremely common. Something like 2-5% of women who have a sibling are sexually abused by them. Sam would have also been a child at this time. My experience of this world, especially SF startup scene, is that most people are mentally ill in some way and some people are just better at hiding it. We can both accept that Sam's sister is a bit ill, this probably did happen, and we probably shouldn't punish adults for the actions of their child selves too harshly. Does that seem ethical and fair?
- noworriesnate 2y ago
  What harsh punishment are we talking about here? Let's be specific: we should collectively call for him to step down from his role in OpenAI. That is not harsh. OpenAI is extremely influential on our society, and he is probably not a well balanced person.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Who aligns the aligners? Taking Sam Altman's statements about AGI power and timelines seriously (for the sake of discussion), his position as CEO directs more power than all presidents and kings combined. Even if he was widely regarded as being amazing and nobody had a word to say against him right now, the USA has term limits on presidents. Taking him seriously, he should also. -- On this specific claim however, requiring people to step down due to unsubstantiated allegations, without proof, is trivial for his political opponents to take advantage of. And he has many political opponents. The huge problem with such abuse is that it's simultaneously very common and very difficult to actually prove. Both halves of the current situation are independently huge problems: Absent physically surveilling almost every home, I don't know what can even be done about proving who did what. If you could catch everyone… between the fact that this is a topic that gets people lynched so suggesting anything less than prison time is unlikely to be possible, and the estimates moonmagick gave of how many people do that (x4-x10 the current USA prison population), I think it may be literally beyond most national budgets to be able to imprison that many people and they would try anyway.
    - noworriesnate 2y ago
      It's not about proving he did it. This isn't a court of law, it's the court of public opinion. This isn't just deciding whether someone goes to prison, this is deciding who gets to control a big chunk of humanity's future. It's not some random naysayer claiming he did it, it's his own sister. It's very likely he did it, so he should step down. Simple as that.
      - ben_w 2y ago
IncreasePosts 2y ago
Notice that I never said that the claim was false. I said that it would not be a data point that I use to judge Altman. I have no ability to verify, or even guess at the veracity of the claims.