5 ms·

Pray tell, what enlightened incorruptible entity would enforce and organise UBI?

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
What enforcement is needed? Either you opt in to accepting the UBI currency, or you don't. If there's an enforcer involved then you've got government UBI. As for issuing the tokens, there are a variety of UBI systems that handle that without a centralized authority. CirclesUBI and Idena come to mind. Admittedly some work is needed here, but the technical barriers are not the hard part. The hard part is establishing the collective political will to build a culture around accepting them, otherwise it's just meaningless numbers.
- int_19h 2y ago
  Why would you even need or want "UBI currency" for UBI? Just give people money.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    That sets up a problematic power dynamic. Whoever is doing the giving has power over whenever is doing the receiving. And you'd want it as an alternative for cases where the other money is questionably legitimate. Like if the people who control its supply have stopped acting in the best interest of the people who use it.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      If anything, that's an argument in favor of UBI - it reduces this power by making the giving unconditional. If every citizen is automatically entitled to their equal share, what power dynamic is there, exactly?
      - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        If some centralized entity is responsible for disseminating the income, they can threaten to stop, or they can threaten to cut people off. So I agree, universal solves the problem, but you're not going to get universal from a bureaucracy. You've got to bake it into the design, similar to how backed-by-gold is baked into the design of the money we're currently using. It needs to be legitimate because it's universal, rather than being legitimate because you got it from somebody who has a lot of guns and has promised to behave themselves. I'm very pro-UBI, I just don't think that saying pretty please to the government is the way to get it.
        int_19h 2y ago
        The government is not some random entity, though. If the bureaucrats don't actually follow the laws written for them, they can be fired (through courts if needed). If the legislators threaten to repeal the laws, they can be voted out.
        __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        Yeah, there is some selective pressure on the level of individual bureaucrats, but it's like a bee hive: the individual bees are only part of the story. The whole thing has aggregate behavior, and we're going to be better off if we develop a way to shape that behavior independently of how we deal with individual bureaucrats. If somebody offers you money that was issued by an organization that has been bombing your neighborhood or poisoning your water you should be able to reject it and still have other options, because to accept it is to contribute to the continued economic power of your enemy such that they can keep harming you. That's independent of whether you're in a position to have the relevant politicians fired.
        ninalanyon 2y ago
        > backed-by-gold is baked into the design of the money we're currently Where do you get that idea from? The Federal reserve flatly denies it: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12770.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12770.htm The US came off the gold standard in 1933. I'm pretty sure no country uses it now.

What enforcement is needed? Either you opt in to accepting the UBI currency, or you don't. If there's an enforcer involved then you've got government UBI. As for issuing the tokens, there are a variety of UBI systems that handle that without a centralized authority. CirclesUBI and Idena come to mind. Admittedly some work is needed here, but the technical barriers are not the hard part. The hard part is establishing the collective political will to build a culture around accepting them, otherwise it's just meaningless numbers.

int_19h 2y ago
Why would you even need or want "UBI currency" for UBI? Just give people money.
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  That sets up a problematic power dynamic. Whoever is doing the giving has power over whenever is doing the receiving. And you'd want it as an alternative for cases where the other money is questionably legitimate. Like if the people who control its supply have stopped acting in the best interest of the people who use it.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    If anything, that's an argument in favor of UBI - it reduces this power by making the giving unconditional. If every citizen is automatically entitled to their equal share, what power dynamic is there, exactly?
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      If some centralized entity is responsible for disseminating the income, they can threaten to stop, or they can threaten to cut people off. So I agree, universal solves the problem, but you're not going to get universal from a bureaucracy. You've got to bake it into the design, similar to how backed-by-gold is baked into the design of the money we're currently using. It needs to be legitimate because it's universal, rather than being legitimate because you got it from somebody who has a lot of guns and has promised to behave themselves. I'm very pro-UBI, I just don't think that saying pretty please to the government is the way to get it.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        The government is not some random entity, though. If the bureaucrats don't actually follow the laws written for them, they can be fired (through courts if needed). If the legislators threaten to repeal the laws, they can be voted out.
        __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        Yeah, there is some selective pressure on the level of individual bureaucrats, but it's like a bee hive: the individual bees are only part of the story. The whole thing has aggregate behavior, and we're going to be better off if we develop a way to shape that behavior independently of how we deal with individual bureaucrats. If somebody offers you money that was issued by an organization that has been bombing your neighborhood or poisoning your water you should be able to reject it and still have other options, because to accept it is to contribute to the continued economic power of your enemy such that they can keep harming you. That's independent of whether you're in a position to have the relevant politicians fired.
      - ninalanyon 2y ago
        > backed-by-gold is baked into the design of the money we're currently Where do you get that idea from? The Federal reserve flatly denies it: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12770.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12770.htm The US came off the gold standard in 1933. I'm pretty sure no country uses it now.