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> “objective, verifiable information” leading to a belief Is very different from 'a belief'. What you're doing is wordsmithing this into something that sounds

> “objective, verifiable information” leading to a belief Is very different from 'a belief'. What you're doing is wordsmithing this into something that sounds much worse than the actual text, which is textbook misinformation spreading.

deleted 2y ago
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boffinAudio 2y ago
No it isn't. This "objective, verifiable information" is an open door to using misinformation to frame innocent people of crimes they have not committed.
- wickedsight 2y ago
  This type of information is already being used to prevent crimes. People get arrested for planning robberies or murders all the time. Those investigations start based on beliefs that are based on 'objective, verifiable information'. After that intent has to be proven in court with evidence that has been found during an investigation. In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. I'm honestly pretty surprised that people think this is a new concept.
  - exe34 2y ago
    > In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. Good luck piecing back together your life at that point, after years of being unemployable and unable to find rental accomodation (and the house that you bought with your life savings is gone, the bank sold it while you were fighting for your freedom).
  - jonathanstrange 2y ago
    There is no mention of probable cause and oversight by a judge. The way this is phrased doesn't even meet the standards for normal police investigations. It's basically a carte blanche for surveillance and secret suspect lists on which nearly anyone can be put.
komali2 2y ago
Anti war activists have been called "terrorist supporters" since at least 2001. Before the 90s were Communist supporters (same thing). I think people give too much credit to governments. "Of course they'll only use for-sure for-sure objectively terrorist intent verifiable information." No, historically what they'll do is throw you on the list because you followed a hot commie girl to a meetup in college, or attended a protest, or hell bought a watch terrorists happen to use to set timers in bombs.
zo1 2y ago
Have you not seen how they're already starting to redefine various very benign but anti-government groups as "terrorists"? Next thing you know, just being a part of that group becomes 'objective, verifiable information" that makes them "believe" that you "may commit" some crime? And pretty much anything, with a semblance of plausibility or causal inference can be used as "objective, verifiable information". They just need to define that property as a) verifiable, b)objective and c) somehow implies some bad other property or future event. There's a reason that programming is hard, and even harder when you have to use normal non-programming-language constructs.
shiandow 2y ago
It's only marginally different. I can look out of the window right now and see objectively verifiable information that has lead some people to believe the earth is flat. What a belief is based on means squat, it is how that belief came to be that is important.

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boffinAudio 2y ago

No it isn't. This "objective, verifiable information" is an open door to using misinformation to frame innocent people of crimes they have not committed.

wickedsight 2y ago
This type of information is already being used to prevent crimes. People get arrested for planning robberies or murders all the time. Those investigations start based on beliefs that are based on 'objective, verifiable information'. After that intent has to be proven in court with evidence that has been found during an investigation. In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. I'm honestly pretty surprised that people think this is a new concept.
- exe34 2y ago
  > In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. Good luck piecing back together your life at that point, after years of being unemployable and unable to find rental accomodation (and the house that you bought with your life savings is gone, the bank sold it while you were fighting for your freedom).
- jonathanstrange 2y ago
  There is no mention of probable cause and oversight by a judge. The way this is phrased doesn't even meet the standards for normal police investigations. It's basically a carte blanche for surveillance and secret suspect lists on which nearly anyone can be put.

komali2 2y ago

Anti war activists have been called "terrorist supporters" since at least 2001. Before the 90s were Communist supporters (same thing). I think people give too much credit to governments. "Of course they'll only use for-sure for-sure objectively terrorist intent verifiable information." No, historically what they'll do is throw you on the list because you followed a hot commie girl to a meetup in college, or attended a protest, or hell bought a watch terrorists happen to use to set timers in bombs.

zo1 2y ago

Have you not seen how they're already starting to redefine various very benign but anti-government groups as "terrorists"? Next thing you know, just being a part of that group becomes 'objective, verifiable information" that makes them "believe" that you "may commit" some crime? And pretty much anything, with a semblance of plausibility or causal inference can be used as "objective, verifiable information". They just need to define that property as a) verifiable, b)objective and c) somehow implies some bad other property or future event. There's a reason that programming is hard, and even harder when you have to use normal non-programming-language constructs.

shiandow 2y ago

It's only marginally different. I can look out of the window right now and see objectively verifiable information that has lead some people to believe the earth is flat. What a belief is based on means squat, it is how that belief came to be that is important.