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That's pretty crazy, it looks a lot like in Minority Report. Notice the reference to a "future criminal offence" and the phrase "leading to the belief" in the c
by jonathanstrange 2y ago
That's pretty crazy, it looks a lot like in Minority Report. Notice the reference to a "future criminal offence" and the phrase "leading to the belief" in the criteria:
A “minimum materiality threshold”. This requires “objective and verifiable… information suggesting that a criminal offence, or future criminal offence, has a certain degree of seriousness.”
A “basic indicative criterion”. This requires “objective, verifiable information” leading to a belief that the individual in question “will in the future commit, facilitate, support or engage in terrorist or violent extremist offences.”
A series of “indicative auxiliary criteria”. This could be involvement in terrorist offences, sharing terrorist content online, or being the subject of an EU entry ban.
- bawolff 2y agoMinority report was about arresting people based on the word of psychics. There is a big difference between that and having evidence someone intends to commit a crime in the future. Of course it is possible to abuse such things, which is why its important to have reasonable definitions for these things.
- logicchains 2y agoIt's not "evidence someone intends to commit a crime in the future", it's evidence "leading to a belief someone intends to commit a crime in the future". With no objective standard for that "belief".
- Dalewyn 2y agoAs Richelieu once put it: "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."
- wickedsight 2y agoInterestingly, this works both for how people interpret this law and how the law might interpret the writing of suspects.
- simianparrot 2y agoA "belief" that someone "may commit a future crime" is practically speaking psychic nonsense.
- wickedsight 2y ago> “objective, verifiable information” leading to a belief Is very different from 'a belief'. What you're doing is wordsmithing this into something that sounds much worse than the actual text, which is textbook misinformation spreading.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- boffinAudio 2y agoNo it isn't. This "objective, verifiable information" is an open door to using misinformation to frame innocent people of crimes they have not committed.
- wickedsight 2y agoThis type of information is already being used to prevent crimes. People get arrested for planning robberies or murders all the time. Those investigations start based on beliefs that are based on 'objective, verifiable information'. After that intent has to be proven in court with evidence that has been found during an investigation. In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. I'm honestly pretty surprised that people think this is a new concept.
- exe34 2y ago> In many cases it also leads to a case being dismissed because no evidence is found. Good luck piecing back together your life at that point, after years of being unemployable and unable to find rental accomodation (and the house that you bought with your life savings is gone, the bank sold it while you were fighting for your freedom).
- gillesjacobs 2y ago1. Three years ago, you liked some tweets of someone who you didn't know was a political seperatist. Now, his group had been classified a terror organisation. 2. You went to buy some acetone as a solvent for a project. There is now material evidence and intent for a terrorist attack using TATP bombs. You and your family are on a no-fly list and are being watched. All digital platforms have to automatically turn over all your personal data to intelligence services. They will share it with every other intelligence service in the union. During automated analysis, a CASM detector finds bath-time pictures of your child. A criminal trial for the production of child pornography is initiated.
- exe34 2y agoYour bank accounts are frozen and credit cards blocked. Your amazon video library is also gone, as is your gmail account.
- tomrod 2y agoThe law is malleable. All laws will be abused, and by corollary, all laws are societal negotiations, one court room at a time. Those in the legal field grok this. Those with less experience in the legal field typically fear the law for its seeming black-and-white attribute when it's really a lot of grey.
- throwaway48476 2y agoPeople take the worst case because statistically it will happen to someone. You can't average risk in your life like you can with insurance.
- gillesjacobs 2y agoAdditionally, for laws like this that specifically take away democratic control this argument is entirely moot. Any claimed benefit or justification is entirely nullified for regular people if their oversight and transparency processes are being negated.
- tomrod 2y ago
- germandiago 2y agoThis looks to me, increasingly and clearly like the current people want to keep the power tight. Not the politicians necessarily, just the whole oligarchies that govern. In my humble opinion, they have pushed Europe to a disaster if things do not get fixed in the next few years.
- throwaway48476 2y agoThe disaster started 40 years ago and is only now breaking through.
- germandiago 2y agoWell, Idk. What I see is... it is in big part our fault but in another part people from outside... trying to get their nose, which, I would say, at the end, that it is enabled by corruption, which... is also our fault anyways.
- throwaway48476 2y agoCorruption is cultural. There's a correlation between petty corruption and political corruption.
- hulitu 2y ago> Corruption is cultural. Are there cultures without corruption ? (no i'm not asking about headhunters in Papua New Guinea)
- throwaway48476 2y agoThe definition of corruption is also cultural. From an individual perspective there are places with relatively more or less corruption.
- germandiago 2y ago
- davidguetta 2y agoI mean if someone is actively speaking of commiting a terror attack on some telegram channel it makes sense to not just ignore it because "he's not done it yet". No absolute either in freedom or security is sustainable.
- throwaway48476 2y agoThe likelihood of someone saying on telgram they will commit a terrorist act is inversely proportional to the likelihood they will commit a terrorist attack. Governments are very good at catching the talkers but hopeless at catching the doers. Going after talkers generally is very useful for creating an atmosphere of fear as well.
- davidguetta 2y agoWhich govs ? There's like every year at least 10 terror attacks which are stopped by intelligences agency in France alone so AFAIk it's just not true
- throwaway48476 2y agoI can speak for America, if you read indictments of domestic terrorists 'caught' before the act they always had help from someone on the federal payroll. (CHS 1..n) The reality is that mind reading technology doesn't exist so you can't stop people. The effort/reward favors manufacturing terrorists rather than catching them.
- davidguetta 2y agoAre you speaking of like gun shooters ? Yeah this could be a different breed than the islamic terrorists we have here
- throwaway48476 2y agoNo, shooters are just charged with murder. Here I'm referring to the cases where the charge is terrorism.
- jand 2y ago"support or engage in terrorist or violent extremist offences" What constitutes "support"? Hopefully your next government is OK with you back then liking the post of that one organization previously not classified as terroristic.
- concordDance 2y agoI wonder if arguing against someone who says "Group X eats babies with kitten sauce!" would count as supporting Group X...
- exe34 2y agoAt the very least you're connected via metadata, so Project Insight will still be interested in you.
- sorushn 2y agoThe Holy Land Foundation case comes to mind.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- varispeed 2y ago"Told you so" comes to mind. When people were talking about this years ago they were called tin foil hatters and downvoted or reported by EU fan boys. Now they are silent.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- zxcb1 2y agoThe Nord Stream incident is attributed to Ukrainian ultranationalists by the WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explos...) My personal pre-crime assessment is that a failed Ukraine would be devastating for the security of EU member states.
- aguaviva 2y agoThat's your attribution -- not the article's. Other than Zaluzhny (who does seem to be a bit of a loose canon; that's why Zelenskyy fired him after all) we have no information yet on who else was involved or their political affiliation as a group. The NS2 bombing was stupid, but it wasn't terrorism.
- zxcb1 2y ago“One of the most audacious acts of sabotage in modern history, the operation worsened an energy crisis in Europe—an assault on critical infrastructure that could be considered an act of war under international law.” Which other potential terrorists are they looking for?
- aguaviva 2y agoAn act of sabotage is not, per se, "terrorism". Check your definitions, please.
- ensignavenger 2y agoDo you think EU governments should be able to track potential terrorists at any threshold, or do you think that authorities should wait until an actual terrorist attack occurs before doing any investigating? If there should be a threshold for when they can start a coordinated investigation, what should that threshold be?