7 ms·

Yeah, except without all the bad parts like images that can get corrupted and stateful (wtf were they thinking?) web-apps.

pjmlp 14y ago
Yeah, the image concept only works properly when Smalltalk is the operating system, as it was originally developed.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  What experience are you basing this on, exactly? (I've often said around here that things would've worked out better if there wasn't such a barrier between stuff happening in Smalltalk and outside in the OS -- community wise. But if you're willing to play just in the Smalltalk sandbox, it's a pretty awesome experience.)
  - pjmlp 14y ago
    Don't take it personally, I love Smalltalk. I've only used Smalltalk/V during university, back in 1995, if memory serves me right. I've seen integration problems migrating code between implementations, lack of proper support for source control specially in distributed teams, lack of integration with the operating system for desktop applications. I know that many of these problems have been solved in newer implementations, but maybe now it is too late.
stcredzero 14y ago
Yeah, except without all the bad parts like images that can get corrupted Sorry, I've been a professional in Smalltalk since 1998, and I've never encountered a corrupted image. The closest thing I've seen to that is de-sync with source code. (Which you don't care much about if you're using SCM, for the same reasons everyone else uses SCM.) stateful (wtf were they thinking?) web-apps. Same things others were thinking at the time -- you're just seeing a slice of history. People still rave over the debugging in Seaside like it's magic, though.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  >People still rave over the debugging in Seaside like it's magic, though. Typing `C-c p d b` in my Emacs inserts this macro: import sys; sys.stdout = sys.__stdout__; import ipdb; ipdb.set_trace() All the benefits of a Lisp REPL and a Smalltalk debugging environment in a language people actually use. Tab-completion, dumps, breakpoints, testing assumptions/data, running arbitrary code inside a specific environ...the works. I can use it in my virtualenvs without having to explain to an IDE what a virtualenv, a running test in Nose, a normal script, or a running web server. It's normal code so I can wrap the trace in a condition or whatever else I want.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Apparently, you missed the point -- which was not a nerd missing match. Is this a defensive reaction to my calling you on the "corrupted image" BS?
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      No, I'm wondering if the promulgators of Smalltalk as a superior debugging environment actually have anything superior to what I just described so that I can steal it for Python. Sometimes I toss stuff out there in the hopes of being shown something better. It's teaches me new things. Lets take a moment to think on our poor brethren still tossing print statements all over the place though.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        Good. Please steal! I want that for Python. Back in the early 2000's, we Smalltalkers called that "winning despite losing." Also let me take another moment to call you out on the "corrupted image" BS.
        heretohelp 14y ago
        >Good. Please steal! I want that for Python. Yes but, want what? What does my little ipdb snippet not do that you want?

pjmlp 14y ago

Yeah, the image concept only works properly when Smalltalk is the operating system, as it was originally developed.

stcredzero 14y ago
What experience are you basing this on, exactly? (I've often said around here that things would've worked out better if there wasn't such a barrier between stuff happening in Smalltalk and outside in the OS -- community wise. But if you're willing to play just in the Smalltalk sandbox, it's a pretty awesome experience.)
- pjmlp 14y ago
  Don't take it personally, I love Smalltalk. I've only used Smalltalk/V during university, back in 1995, if memory serves me right. I've seen integration problems migrating code between implementations, lack of proper support for source control specially in distributed teams, lack of integration with the operating system for desktop applications. I know that many of these problems have been solved in newer implementations, but maybe now it is too late.

stcredzero 14y ago

Yeah, except without all the bad parts like images that can get corrupted Sorry, I've been a professional in Smalltalk since 1998, and I've never encountered a corrupted image. The closest thing I've seen to that is de-sync with source code. (Which you don't care much about if you're using SCM, for the same reasons everyone else uses SCM.) stateful (wtf were they thinking?) web-apps. Same things others were thinking at the time -- you're just seeing a slice of history. People still rave over the debugging in Seaside like it's magic, though.

heretohelp 14y ago
>People still rave over the debugging in Seaside like it's magic, though. Typing `C-c p d b` in my Emacs inserts this macro: import sys; sys.stdout = sys.__stdout__; import ipdb; ipdb.set_trace() All the benefits of a Lisp REPL and a Smalltalk debugging environment in a language people actually use. Tab-completion, dumps, breakpoints, testing assumptions/data, running arbitrary code inside a specific environ...the works. I can use it in my virtualenvs without having to explain to an IDE what a virtualenv, a running test in Nose, a normal script, or a running web server. It's normal code so I can wrap the trace in a condition or whatever else I want.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Apparently, you missed the point -- which was not a nerd missing match. Is this a defensive reaction to my calling you on the "corrupted image" BS?
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    No, I'm wondering if the promulgators of Smalltalk as a superior debugging environment actually have anything superior to what I just described so that I can steal it for Python. Sometimes I toss stuff out there in the hopes of being shown something better. It's teaches me new things. Lets take a moment to think on our poor brethren still tossing print statements all over the place though.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      Good. Please steal! I want that for Python. Back in the early 2000's, we Smalltalkers called that "winning despite losing." Also let me take another moment to call you out on the "corrupted image" BS.
      - heretohelp 14y ago
        >Good. Please steal! I want that for Python. Yes but, want what? What does my little ipdb snippet not do that you want?