3 ms·

I communicated that badly. It doesn't matter so much how things are seen outside the workplace, but within it. Programming is definitely considered high-status

I communicated that badly. It doesn't matter so much how things are seen outside the workplace, but within it. Programming is definitely considered high-status in a software firm: ever heard of the concept of a "rockstar programmer"? Low-status tasks (e.g. vital, but "unpromotable" ones) are delegated to women, and tasks that are associated with femininity are considered low-status. This is a well-documented (https://noidea.dog/glue https://noidea.dog/glue) and easily-measurable phenomenon. I expect there are many harder-to-measure instances of institutional sexism that might make classes of workplace unpalatable, even if there's no gender bias in desire to do the actual work. If this (or a similar) effect has been going on for a while, I'd expect that to have significant knock-on effects.

eru 2y ago
For a counterpoint: a friend of mine works at Google, and as an excellent SRE who also happens to be female she's steadily getting opportunities thrown her way; especially invites to speak at external conferences and other internal events. She's also gotten promotions. It helps that she's very competent, but she didn't have to work extra to be noticed by the organisation.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Systematic discrimination isn't the same as universal discrimination. If we're trading second-hand anecdotes, I've got a couple dozen of trans women programmers no longer receiving promotions despite flawless performance reviews, and half a dozen trans men programmers suddenly receiving credit for work they were previously ignored for. That's as close to a controlled test as I can think of – though, obviously, marred by the selection bias of anecdotes. All this doesn't mean it's the same in mathematics – but I'm not sure how someone can deny that there's institutional sexism in the field of computer programming. It's well-documented. "One person at Google" doesn't refute that.
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    Now I'm playing a game of "find the earliest such anecdote". Here's one from 2006: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060714174545.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060714174545.h... > Where Summers sees innate differences, Barres sees discrimination. As a young woman […] he said he was discouraged from setting his sights on MIT, where he ended up receiving his bachelor’s degree. Once there, he was told that a boyfriend must have solved a hard math problem that he had answered and that had stumped most men in the class. After he began living as a man in 1997, Barres overheard another scientist say, “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but his work is much better than his sister’s work.”

eru 2y ago

For a counterpoint: a friend of mine works at Google, and as an excellent SRE who also happens to be female she's steadily getting opportunities thrown her way; especially invites to speak at external conferences and other internal events. She's also gotten promotions. It helps that she's very competent, but she didn't have to work extra to be noticed by the organisation.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
Systematic discrimination isn't the same as universal discrimination. If we're trading second-hand anecdotes, I've got a couple dozen of trans women programmers no longer receiving promotions despite flawless performance reviews, and half a dozen trans men programmers suddenly receiving credit for work they were previously ignored for. That's as close to a controlled test as I can think of – though, obviously, marred by the selection bias of anecdotes. All this doesn't mean it's the same in mathematics – but I'm not sure how someone can deny that there's institutional sexism in the field of computer programming. It's well-documented. "One person at Google" doesn't refute that.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  Now I'm playing a game of "find the earliest such anecdote". Here's one from 2006: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060714174545.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060714174545.h... > Where Summers sees innate differences, Barres sees discrimination. As a young woman […] he said he was discouraged from setting his sights on MIT, where he ended up receiving his bachelor’s degree. Once there, he was told that a boyfriend must have solved a hard math problem that he had answered and that had stumped most men in the class. After he began living as a man in 1997, Barres overheard another scientist say, “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but his work is much better than his sister’s work.”