9 ms·

"allow anyone else to buy any of those assets for the declared value" How would this work?

by ttymck 2y ago

whatshisface 2y ago
If you show up at the tax assessor's office with a check for more than the self-reported value of my home, realistically plus the premium the government pays in eminent domain cases, you get the title. That idea is pretty much "eminent domain for all."
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  That seems really annoying to deal with. It's possible it would lead to a better society eventually, but in the short term I'd rather speculators not buy my shitbox car out from under me because they spotted the chip shortage before I did.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    It might not be so bad if you were allowed to accept an increase in your tax assessment rather than selling at the new price.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > might not be so bad if you were allowed to accept an increase in your tax assessment rather than selling at the new price Sounds like a bonanza for developers.
      - whatshisface 2y ago
        I think that's the point, to free up all the economic activity that's being held up by patents, copyright and land underuse, and to get fair tax assessment on assets previously exempt from property taxes as a bonus.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        I don't see how this has anything to do with patents or copyright. Presumably, those would be subject to this seizure mechanism and thus flow to those most willing to enforce their claims. Like, 99% of the activity under such a mechanism would be transfers of financial assets.
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        A power law land value tax would take care of most of the problem at almost no cost (since land is assessed regularly anyway). This should completely replace income tax. Copyright terms should also be 10 years, maybe 15 max. Patents could probably stay as is, but I don’t see any problem reducing them too.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > power law land value tax would take care of most of the problem at almost no cost (since land is assessed regularly anyway) Sure. This is a totally different proposal. Would note that you could go a long way to making this proposal electorally appealing by exempting primary residences. (In my experience, the assessed value of a home is at best loosely related to its market value.)
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        It would be electorally appealing, but would fail at one of the main benefits. The number one waste of space in the US is people’s excessively large footprint, causing enormous consumption of energy and infrastructure costs that are borne by future generations. All these detached single family homes on 0.1+ acre lots are massively expensive and the people living in them hardly pay taxes proportionate to the benefit they receive from the government. Instead, our society takes from the working class via income tax. If you want to live in a detached home on a large lot, be ready to pay the appropriate land value taxes. If you want to conserve and use less of society’s resources, live in an apartment building. Since the tax formula would be a power law function, it would inherently not be punitive to the vast majority of Americans who don’t live on outsize plots of land.
- jermaustin1 2y ago
  This is terrible. I don't want to loose a priceless family heirloom (grandma's Sheraton-style rocking chair from 1890s) just because someone wants it and can write a check for $1 more than the assessed value. That discounts sentimental value. And if I now have to declare sentimental value and pay taxes on it, I'd rather burn it to the ground (grandma would approve).
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    A lot of people hate eminent domain too, for that exact reason. I think libertarians want to get rid of it entirely because it's an involuntary transaction.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Not being born to a grandma who could afford a life stable enough to preserve and pass down such a chair is also an involuntary transaction, but libertarians don’t seem to talk about that.
    - JamesBarney 2y ago
      Yeah eminently domain isn't great. But also it's better than the alternative which is having a country without roads.
londons_explore 2y ago
Bob declared his car to be worth $18k in 2023. Fred fills in an official form, pays $18k to bob, and takes bobs car. Perhaps a 1 month handover period is given, and perhaps a 10% 'hostile sale' fee is given to the government to prevent abuse of the system to take houses from grannies. Lets say any item worth over $10k (including cars, land, houses, companies, etc) would be part of the system. Another way of looking at it is "all items in the nation are always for sale, and if you don't want to sell you better choose a high price". Obviously if you don't want your stuff taken, declare a high value. But you'll pay a bit more tax for the privilege.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > perhaps a 10% 'hostile sale' fee is given to the government to prevent abuse of the system to take houses from grannies So Bob is not only out a car, but down $1,800k to boot?
- ttymck 2y ago
  Surely you can't be serious. Say, in this fantasy world, my car appreciates $3k. Can Fred still pay $18k before I have a chance to re-assess?
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    If some asset changes in value, you could reassess at any time. Just like a car dealer changes the sticker prices on his cars every few days,
    - sroussey 2y ago
      This will be fun with crypto. You assessed yesterday and it shot up in value and I take it off your hands at 3am.
    - happyopossum 2y ago
      So now you have a full time job managing the declared value of all of your assets? Or perhaps you'd suggest families now have to hire an asset management firm? this is ridiculous
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> How would this work? Private ownership would become impractical for the hoi polloi. The wealthy would need to pay a new class of bureaucrats to keep asset values up to date, to continuously incorporate new information into their marks. Everyone else would be better off renting--owning a car would be risky as it could be snatched from you at a moment's notice due to an overnight shift in the metal markets. Remarkably similar to a feudal system, actually. EDIT: What am I thinking, you'd just move all your financial assets overseas and maintain as little real property as possible domestically. The same thing folks do in the Gulf countries where the monarch gets stealsy from time to time.
Detrytus 2y ago
There’s a similar concept with real estate taxes in some countries: you pay your tax based on self-reported valuation, but if you sell for a price that’s higher than this valuation then you have to pay adjusted tax for like 5 years back.

"allow anyone else to buy any of those assets for the declared value" How would this work?

by ttymck 2y ago

"allow anyone else to buy any of those assets for the declared value" How would this work?

If you show up at the tax assessor's office with a check for more than the self-reported value of my home, realistically plus the premium the government pays in eminent domain cases, you get the title. That idea is pretty much "eminent domain for all."

BobaFloutist 2y ago
That seems really annoying to deal with. It's possible it would lead to a better society eventually, but in the short term I'd rather speculators not buy my shitbox car out from under me because they spotted the chip shortage before I did.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  It might not be so bad if you were allowed to accept an increase in your tax assessment rather than selling at the new price.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > might not be so bad if you were allowed to accept an increase in your tax assessment rather than selling at the new price Sounds like a bonanza for developers.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      I think that's the point, to free up all the economic activity that's being held up by patents, copyright and land underuse, and to get fair tax assessment on assets previously exempt from property taxes as a bonus.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        I don't see how this has anything to do with patents or copyright. Presumably, those would be subject to this seizure mechanism and thus flow to those most willing to enforce their claims. Like, 99% of the activity under such a mechanism would be transfers of financial assets.
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        A power law land value tax would take care of most of the problem at almost no cost (since land is assessed regularly anyway). This should completely replace income tax. Copyright terms should also be 10 years, maybe 15 max. Patents could probably stay as is, but I don’t see any problem reducing them too.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > power law land value tax would take care of most of the problem at almost no cost (since land is assessed regularly anyway) Sure. This is a totally different proposal. Would note that you could go a long way to making this proposal electorally appealing by exempting primary residences. (In my experience, the assessed value of a home is at best loosely related to its market value.)
        lotsofpulp 2y ago
        It would be electorally appealing, but would fail at one of the main benefits. The number one waste of space in the US is people’s excessively large footprint, causing enormous consumption of energy and infrastructure costs that are borne by future generations. All these detached single family homes on 0.1+ acre lots are massively expensive and the people living in them hardly pay taxes proportionate to the benefit they receive from the government. Instead, our society takes from the working class via income tax. If you want to live in a detached home on a large lot, be ready to pay the appropriate land value taxes. If you want to conserve and use less of society’s resources, live in an apartment building. Since the tax formula would be a power law function, it would inherently not be punitive to the vast majority of Americans who don’t live on outsize plots of land.
jermaustin1 2y ago
This is terrible. I don't want to loose a priceless family heirloom (grandma's Sheraton-style rocking chair from 1890s) just because someone wants it and can write a check for $1 more than the assessed value. That discounts sentimental value. And if I now have to declare sentimental value and pay taxes on it, I'd rather burn it to the ground (grandma would approve).
- whatshisface 2y ago
  A lot of people hate eminent domain too, for that exact reason. I think libertarians want to get rid of it entirely because it's an involuntary transaction.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Not being born to a grandma who could afford a life stable enough to preserve and pass down such a chair is also an involuntary transaction, but libertarians don’t seem to talk about that.
  - JamesBarney 2y ago
    Yeah eminently domain isn't great. But also it's better than the alternative which is having a country without roads.

londons_explore 2y ago

Bob declared his car to be worth $18k in 2023. Fred fills in an official form, pays $18k to bob, and takes bobs car. Perhaps a 1 month handover period is given, and perhaps a 10% 'hostile sale' fee is given to the government to prevent abuse of the system to take houses from grannies. Lets say any item worth over $10k (including cars, land, houses, companies, etc) would be part of the system. Another way of looking at it is "all items in the nation are always for sale, and if you don't want to sell you better choose a high price". Obviously if you don't want your stuff taken, declare a high value. But you'll pay a bit more tax for the privilege.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> perhaps a 10% 'hostile sale' fee is given to the government to prevent abuse of the system to take houses from grannies So Bob is not only out a car, but down $1,800k to boot?
ttymck 2y ago
Surely you can't be serious. Say, in this fantasy world, my car appreciates $3k. Can Fred still pay $18k before I have a chance to re-assess?
- londons_explore 2y ago
  If some asset changes in value, you could reassess at any time. Just like a car dealer changes the sticker prices on his cars every few days,
  - sroussey 2y ago
    This will be fun with crypto. You assessed yesterday and it shot up in value and I take it off your hands at 3am.
  - happyopossum 2y ago
    So now you have a full time job managing the declared value of all of your assets? Or perhaps you'd suggest families now have to hire an asset management firm? this is ridiculous

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> How would this work? Private ownership would become impractical for the hoi polloi. The wealthy would need to pay a new class of bureaucrats to keep asset values up to date, to continuously incorporate new information into their marks. Everyone else would be better off renting--owning a car would be risky as it could be snatched from you at a moment's notice due to an overnight shift in the metal markets. Remarkably similar to a feudal system, actually. EDIT: What am I thinking, you'd just move all your financial assets overseas and maintain as little real property as possible domestically. The same thing folks do in the Gulf countries where the monarch gets stealsy from time to time.

Detrytus 2y ago

There’s a similar concept with real estate taxes in some countries: you pay your tax based on self-reported valuation, but if you sell for a price that’s higher than this valuation then you have to pay adjusted tax for like 5 years back.