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yeah. i'm not saying we've made the optimal choice here: for instance, we could have focused on growing mainstream usage at all cost without distractions of ent

yeah. i'm not saying we've made the optimal choice here: for instance, we could have focused on growing mainstream usage at all cost without distractions of enterprise or govtech (similar to Bluesky), and assume that once we have enough users we'd be able to figure out monetisation somehow via a Discord Nitro style scheme. However, we're at where we are now, and we're committed as to the current path as a way to get sustainable and then go back to supporting mainstream users (including Brian and his Warhammer clan). Perhaps a profitable govtech business can subsidise mainstream FOSS Matrix without having to do Nitro style value gates (which are tough to enforce anyway in a decentralised world). > but the website still says "communicate with friends, family, communities and co-workers" That was the messaging prior to early 2023, when we shifted gear to "get sustainable by focusing on govtech". Which is why the frontpage of the website currently doesn't say anything about friends/family/communities, sadly. I just had to fish around to find out where you saw the old wording - i'm guessing it's in the footer for element.io/blog? ...which is a snafu due to the blog being Ghost and the website being Webflow.

grues-dinner 2y ago
All the best of luck. Genuinely, I hope it works out because I despise all the closed chat platforms and view the lack of a compelling FOSS alternative to be strange, frustrating and even embarrassing when someone uses it as an example of why FOSS just doesn't work for consumer software. As for the wording, it's on the front page of https://matrix.org https://matrix.org, just below the fold. Scroll down once and it's centre of the page. https://imgur.com/a/jonz89P https://imgur.com/a/jonz89P The fold below that is "A cozy, safe, supercharged place for your community" and the image says "Kayak club". Which, yes, is Matrix not Element, but it recommends Element specifically in the click through.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  Oh! Well, yes, Matrix itself would love to be a cosy safe supercharged place for your community (even if i’m not sure a protocol should describe itself like that tbh). Some clients like Cinny or FluffyChat are close to that. Element will also get there eventually. In terms of why consumer FOSS software often sucks: * Good UX requires top down product discipline: cathedral model, not bazaar. * Product folks are less likely to contribute to FOSS, especially in their spare time * Therefore they need to do it as their dayjob. * Running a sustainable FOSS company is hard.
  - grues-dinner 2y ago
    > even if i’m not sure a protocol should describe itself like that tbh Aren't you the matrix.org project lead though? (if not, maybe your bio needs an update).
    - Arathorn 2y ago
      yup. the problem on the matrix.org website is a tradeoff between a very dry “this is a protocol”, like w3c.org - versus trying to give some more accessible use cases for people who expect to find an instant messaging network. the current wording oversteers.
  - nunobrito 2y ago
    From the conversation it seems Matrix just grew bloated, when I look at what NOSTR is developing and the speed at which crutial features are delivered then it is quite a world of difference. Those governments might be paying your bills for now, but you've lost the support from the open source community on the way to get there and soon be forgotten by everyone. I just hope one day we won't have the sad news of discovering that Matrix injected backdoors from the Israeli government to receive funding. Nevertheless, I wish you all the best.
    - Arathorn 2y ago
      Thanks for the tipoff to look at 0xchat - it does remind me of where Matrix was about 8 years ago (in terms of maturity, speed of growth, features, etc). Good luck to them. In terms of Matrix having lost the support from the open source community because Element hasn't implemented custom emoji yet... time will tell. In the end I suspect the open source community would be even more upset if Element had run out of money and exploded (although you never know; haters gonna hate :)

grues-dinner 2y ago

All the best of luck. Genuinely, I hope it works out because I despise all the closed chat platforms and view the lack of a compelling FOSS alternative to be strange, frustrating and even embarrassing when someone uses it as an example of why FOSS just doesn't work for consumer software. As for the wording, it's on the front page of https://matrix.org https://matrix.org, just below the fold. Scroll down once and it's centre of the page. https://imgur.com/a/jonz89P https://imgur.com/a/jonz89P The fold below that is "A cozy, safe, supercharged place for your community" and the image says "Kayak club". Which, yes, is Matrix not Element, but it recommends Element specifically in the click through.

Arathorn 2y ago
Oh! Well, yes, Matrix itself would love to be a cosy safe supercharged place for your community (even if i’m not sure a protocol should describe itself like that tbh). Some clients like Cinny or FluffyChat are close to that. Element will also get there eventually. In terms of why consumer FOSS software often sucks: * Good UX requires top down product discipline: cathedral model, not bazaar. * Product folks are less likely to contribute to FOSS, especially in their spare time * Therefore they need to do it as their dayjob. * Running a sustainable FOSS company is hard.
- grues-dinner 2y ago
  > even if i’m not sure a protocol should describe itself like that tbh Aren't you the matrix.org project lead though? (if not, maybe your bio needs an update).
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    yup. the problem on the matrix.org website is a tradeoff between a very dry “this is a protocol”, like w3c.org - versus trying to give some more accessible use cases for people who expect to find an instant messaging network. the current wording oversteers.
- nunobrito 2y ago
  From the conversation it seems Matrix just grew bloated, when I look at what NOSTR is developing and the speed at which crutial features are delivered then it is quite a world of difference. Those governments might be paying your bills for now, but you've lost the support from the open source community on the way to get there and soon be forgotten by everyone. I just hope one day we won't have the sad news of discovering that Matrix injected backdoors from the Israeli government to receive funding. Nevertheless, I wish you all the best.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    Thanks for the tipoff to look at 0xchat - it does remind me of where Matrix was about 8 years ago (in terms of maturity, speed of growth, features, etc). Good luck to them. In terms of Matrix having lost the support from the open source community because Element hasn't implemented custom emoji yet... time will tell. In the end I suspect the open source community would be even more upset if Element had run out of money and exploded (although you never know; haters gonna hate :)