9 ms·

Automattic–WP Engine Term Sheet

119 points by mobilio 2y ago

e40 2y ago
Deciding after the fact you want 8% of another company’s revenue seems extortionate.
- ablation 2y ago
  "Extortion" does feel like the appropriate word to use in this case, I say only partly in jest - there's certainly been coercion or threats, having seen Matt's messages to WP Engine before his conference appearance. Automattic and Mullenweg continue to surprise me at seemingly every turn. I also find some of the language being used ostensibly BY Automattic in these blog posts just incredible, coming from what is supposed to be a respected and respectable organisation. I'm seriously considering whether to ever use WordPress again for projects.
  - zorrn 2y ago
    Do you know any good alternative? I'm searching myself.
gortok 2y ago
The terms seem oppressive in nature and not designed to actually be agreed to. If I wanted to say “I made them an offer” but wanted to be sure they wouldn’t take me up on the offer, this is the sort of term sheet I’d use.
markx2 2y ago
How can the 'Fee' possibly be justified? "2. Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following: (a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights. (b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking. (c) Some combination of the above two options'
- yuppiepuppie 2y ago
  Most likely an opening offer to be negotiated down to 3-5% would be my guess.
  - markx2 2y ago
    This looks very strange: "Automattic will have full audit rights." "WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking."
    - metalforever 2y ago
      Agree with this. Is this correct?
      - markx2 2y ago
        It's there in the Fee section..... I get that regulatory bodies should have access under certain conditions, but letting a competitor do this? Makes zero sense.
    - mjburgess 2y ago
      Well it's basically saying, just give us the money. The "audit rights" only apply if they're donating time, so they want that to be the most difficult and intrusive option -- ie., its only there for PR. The choice is, "some money and we'll look the other way; or open all your books, and donate 8% of your workforce to wordpress"
      - markx2 2y ago
        The 'audit rights' are written at the end of 2(a) and apply to just giving money. It's not just time.
        mjburgess 2y ago
        You're right, I should've focused on the " including access to employee records and time-tracking " aspect
misnome 2y ago
> One of the many lies in Silver Lake and WP Engine’s C&D was their claim that Automattic demanded money from them.... That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress So, it is true.
- evv 2y ago
  This is probably the strangest post I have read in a long time. "They claim that we demanded money from them around these dates.. not true!" "So here is the demand for money that we requested they sign, around these dates" Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but... it seems like the most obvious interpretation. Also, what is the purpose of listing all these dates when the two companies met? Without knowing the content of these discussions, this list doesn't remotely meet the community's request for transparency.
  - jacobwg 2y ago
    The dates feel like intentional deception. The community question is "how long have you been discussing trademark usage?" and the answer is "I had lunch in February 2023!" Like somebody not trying to be deceptive would say "we started talking about trademarks and a commercial relationship in February 2023", but that's not what this post says, and that's not the answer Matt has given in interviews, it's always this strange list of dates instead.
- _cenw 2y ago
  They asked for either - money directly to Automattic, not the WordPress Foundation. - employees working on WordPress core, at the direction of Automattic - including looking at their time sheets and employee files. Neither of this is "back into WordPress", it's "to Automattic". The company that often did prioritize their workers to work on features benefitting WordPress.com users. There actually used to be a constant for checking if running inside WPCOM in WP Core, but they seem to have removed it since. Let's not even talk about Jetpack and carving out shit from your core product, that gives me too many AOSP vs Play Services vibes. Either way, WP Engine is a competitor of Automattic. This is laughable. I hope they fork WordPress, because I'd feel uncomfortable contributing software to the benefit of such a bully (I am a former contibutor).
misnome 2y ago
It sure is wild to watch Wordpress burn it's entire reputation to the ground over this
- ablation 2y ago
  I genuinely can't believe some of what I'm seeing, as I said in another comment. If this is all Mullenweg, he needs some form of oversight right now telling him to stop communicating.
  - mthoms 2y ago
    He recently claimed that his lawyers are encouraging him to carry on like this. It's mind boggling.
_cenw 2y ago
Do they think this makes them look good?
maxloh 2y ago
A non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company to demand payment from the for-profit's competitor, straight into the for-profit's pocket (assuming the WP Foundation has total control over wordpress.org). That's a really bad look, WordPress Foundation.
- misnome 2y ago
  > non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company I mean, "partners" in the sense of "The same person runs both"
mjburgess 2y ago
So, to be clear: if I want to start a company using wordpress as core technology, I should expect to be extorted for around 8% if I get successful enough. I cannot imagine "Automattic" has thought this through. There is no ransom agreement in open source, and the very basis of wordpress' success is the absence of such a thing. What company now, looking at this technology, would touch it with a 100ft pole?
- wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
  They've always been actively protecting their trademark. Also small companies or meetups using WordPress were asked to change that. I think they even have to do that legally to some degree to protect their trademark. WP Engine has build their success on piggybacking the WordPress trademark, their slogan is "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond". It's probably fair they pay a fee for that. If they would just use the open source software & would market it as a blog-hosting they would most likely be in the clear.
  - chx 2y ago
    > Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ How does "Most Trusted" differ from "best" which is allowed?
    - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
      I think that's not the difference, if I read it correctly the difference is being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting. I think the big difference is also the marketing WP Engine is running full on The WordPress hosting.
      - threeseed 2y ago
        > being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting WPEngine is also offering Headless and WooCommerce as well as WordPress. So your point makes absolutely no sense.
proxysna 2y ago
>One of the many lies in Silver Lake and WP Engine’s C&D was their claim that Automattic demanded money from them moments before our CEO Matt Mullenweg gave his keynote at WordCamp US. >That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress, either in the form of a trademark agreement or employee hours spent on core WordPress. Tomato-Tomato. Comedy gold.
- znpy 2y ago
  The guy from WP-Engine literally posted screenshot of texts from the WordPress guy demanding money in a ransom-style tone. At this point I hope this goes to court, so things can be properly examined according to law, otherwise it looks like childish tantrum.
  - reddalo 2y ago
    > The guy from WP-Engine Who? Do you have a link?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      They are in the C&D WP Engine sent. Starting on the second page. https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-Desist-Letter-to-Automattic-and-Request-to-Preserve-Documents-Sent.pdf https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- bad_user 2y ago
  Well, it is true that money wasn't the only option. And the quote is out of context. The article also gives a timetable of conversations that happened between Automattic and WP Engine well in advance; therefore, the demands shouldn't have been a surprise, as claimed.
  - 2y ago
jefozabuss 2y ago
Automattic is cooking from that Unity cookbook
rizky05 2y ago
[dead]
benjaminwootton 2y ago
Some of these posts and the logic used look like a mental health issue than a negotiation.
InsomniacL 2y ago
Right or wrong, they just keep digging that hole.
pknerd 2y ago
From C&D document , Matt sounds like a bully to me
thanksgiving 2y ago
I don’t understand why Automattic is involved at all. I imagined this was between Wordpress dot org and WP engine or whatever. Nobody should ever have to pay automattic a dime. I came into this conversation fully in support of Wordpress dot org but the more I read into this the more it feels like I didn’t understand the situation between automattic and Wordpress dot org at all. I’m leaving the conversation thinking the relation between automattic and Wordpress dot org is one of tax avoidance. What am I missing?
- bradfa 2y ago
  WordPress dot org is basically fully funded and operated by Automattic. It seems that by default a WordPress installation will use WordPress dot org for many features and capabilities. WP Engine leaves this enabled on their hosted sites, so each WP Engine customer is effectively getting free access to an Automattic funded resource. Automattic wants to get paid back for this use, either in money or developer resources. Automattic's desire seems totally reasonable. Their execution of expressing that desire seems to be totally unreasonable.
  - maxloh 2y ago
    Except there is a "Donate" link in the wordpress.org footer, which leads to The WordPress Foundation's donation page. On that page, it states: [0] > The WordPress Foundation is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization... I don’t find it reasonable for a non-profit organization to demand payment from users to one of its donors, Automattic, instead of encouraging donations to itself. [0]: https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/ https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/
    - thanksgiving 2y ago
      Exactly. If Wordpress dot org demanded that companies that use foundation server resources pay the foundation, I’d be ok with that. Why is automattic involved in this conversation? I generally assume other people are smarter than more competent than I am, especially successful people like Matt. That’s why I asked the question. There has to be more to the story, right? Is it as simple as Matt didn’t even talk to a lawyer before doing all of this for whatever reason?
martin_a 2y ago
I can only repeat what I said the other day. This is all a huge pile of bullshit. Automattic does not like the competition, so they pick one actor in the WP ecosystem _randomly_ and try to force this on to them. For anybody who is running a service that uses WP this is a threat. You can't be sure that if you build on that ecosystem that one day Matt Mullenweg does not like you and will try to extort money from you, too.
GavinAnderegg 2y ago
The thing that bothers me most about this ordeal is there’s now a “hidden license” for WordPress. If Mullenweg thinks you’re not giving back enough, then free software is no longer free. Rather than a specific term sheet and a list of meetings, I would like to better understand when this new license comes into effect. At the moment it seems like it’s only required when Mullenweg is upset with you. I wrote a bit more to this effect here: https://anderegg.ca/2024/09/28/the-hidden-wordpress-license https://anderegg.ca/2024/09/28/the-hidden-wordpress-license
- bad_user 2y ago
  This has always been the case with all Open-Source products contributed by companies, due to the complexity of IP laws. Patents are the most problematic. It's why it's important, for instance, for the OSS license to also include a patents-grant that applies to derived works as well, something that (at least in the past) companies like Microsoft and Facebook failed to provide. Furthermore, even Open-Source foundations and non-profits have trademarks that they protect. Once upon a time, Debian had problems with patching Firefox, as Mozilla did not accept the modifications, leading to a Debian-specific rebranding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_trademark_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_tradema... This issue is also about the free use of WordPress.org APIs. This is like expecting forks of Chromium or of Android to have continued (free) use of Google Play. Obviously, Google Play is not really included in the OSS deal, and it is only through the continued benevolence of Google that alternatives still have access to it.
akaike 2y ago
Matt is a “little” of his rocker
bradfa 2y ago
All this drama is just convincing me to never want to use WordPress.
markx2 2y ago
This thread went from #1 to buried.
- GavinAnderegg 2y ago
  I’ve been fascinated by this WordPress story, but HN seems to really dislike it. I’m assuming mods are pushing posts like this down, but I’m not sure what rule/norm they're breaking?
  - r721 2y ago
    It could be user flags too: >Although submissions cannot be downvoted, flags act as a "super" downvote and enough flags will strongly reduce the rank of the submission, or kill it entirely (flagging is supposed to be used for submissions which break the site guidelines, but that isn't always the case in practice). https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented
- Semaphor 2y ago
  It had more comments than upvote-points, HN automatically buries high comment to point ratio threads to avoid incitement. Not sure if that applies here, just throwing that out as a possible explanation.
  - ablation 2y ago
    The thought did cross my mind that, given the focus it has had on HN over the past few days, there may be a concerted effort to try and bury things like this where the sentiment is overwhelmingly against WP/MM/Automattic. Tinfoil hat territory I know, but this really did drop like a stone. It's really the only time in all my years on HN I was genuinely surprised to not find the post 'where I left it' on the front page after a few minutes away.
    - rob 2y ago
      My post from yesterday, also buried quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41712617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41712617
bbx 2y ago
I've used Wordpress since 2006, when, in need of a dynamic website, and not knowing any programming language, I managed to build my own custom WP theme within a couple of weeks. WP's ease of use has always been its main asset. I've built dozens of professional custom themes for paying clients for the best part of a decade. However, two aspects of WP that were always pain points were: local development and hosting. That's where WP Engine provided solutions. While being more expensive than other platforms, hosting a WP website with them is a great experience, whether in terms of installing, managing, or reliability. And recently, I had to update an old WP instance for a client. Having no local install available, I looked into new tools to setup one. Turns out WP Engine's tool called "Local" is what Automattic should have provided 10 years ago. It's a fantastic piece of software that "just works"! It seems like Automattic feels jealous that another company managed to build upon their own open source product to provide a better experience in every aspect (development, managing, hosting) and are making bank. Good for WP Engine.
- hackerbeat 2y ago
  Nah: https://developer.wordpress.com/studio/ https://developer.wordpress.com/studio/
  - bbx 2y ago
    This was launched in April 2024, not even 6 months ago. LocalWP was launched in 2017. So Automattic launched a similar tool to their competitor 7 years later? You're just proving my point mate.
    - hackerbeat 2y ago
      https://x.com/SashaBaksht/status/1842183110814789889 https://x.com/SashaBaksht/status/1842183110814789889
gman83 2y ago
What is a good alternative to WordPress? I don't want a headless CMS, I want a CMS I can log into and edit pages & CPTs. Ideally using a pagebuilder like Bricks. I don't want to ever have to open a code editor. Is there a good alternative?

119 points by mobilio 2y ago

e40 2y ago

Deciding after the fact you want 8% of another company’s revenue seems extortionate.

ablation 2y ago
"Extortion" does feel like the appropriate word to use in this case, I say only partly in jest - there's certainly been coercion or threats, having seen Matt's messages to WP Engine before his conference appearance. Automattic and Mullenweg continue to surprise me at seemingly every turn. I also find some of the language being used ostensibly BY Automattic in these blog posts just incredible, coming from what is supposed to be a respected and respectable organisation. I'm seriously considering whether to ever use WordPress again for projects.
- zorrn 2y ago
  Do you know any good alternative? I'm searching myself.

gortok 2y ago

The terms seem oppressive in nature and not designed to actually be agreed to. If I wanted to say “I made them an offer” but wanted to be sure they wouldn’t take me up on the offer, this is the sort of term sheet I’d use.

markx2 2y ago

How can the 'Fee' possibly be justified? "2. Fee. In exchange for the License Grant, WP Engine shall do one of the following: (a) Pay Automattic a royalty fee equal to 8% of its Gross Revenue on a monthly basis, within fifteen days of the end of each month. "Gross Revenue" means all revenue generated by WP Engine from the sale of its services, calculated without deductions for taxes, refunds, or other costs. WP Engine will also provide Automattic a detailed monthly report of its Gross Revenue within fifteen days of the close of each calendar month, including a product line breakdown of all revenues generated. Automattic will have full audit rights. (b) Commit 8% of its revenue in the form of salaries of WP Engine employees working on WordPress core features and functionality to be directed by WordPress.org. WP Engine will provide Automattic a detailed monthly report demonstrating its fulfillment of this commitment. WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking. (c) Some combination of the above two options'

yuppiepuppie 2y ago
Most likely an opening offer to be negotiated down to 3-5% would be my guess.
- markx2 2y ago
  This looks very strange: "Automattic will have full audit rights." "WordPress.org and Automattic will have full audit rights, including access to employee records and time-tracking."
  - metalforever 2y ago
    Agree with this. Is this correct?
    - markx2 2y ago
      It's there in the Fee section..... I get that regulatory bodies should have access under certain conditions, but letting a competitor do this? Makes zero sense.
  - mjburgess 2y ago
    Well it's basically saying, just give us the money. The "audit rights" only apply if they're donating time, so they want that to be the most difficult and intrusive option -- ie., its only there for PR. The choice is, "some money and we'll look the other way; or open all your books, and donate 8% of your workforce to wordpress"
    - markx2 2y ago
      The 'audit rights' are written at the end of 2(a) and apply to just giving money. It's not just time.
      - mjburgess 2y ago
        You're right, I should've focused on the " including access to employee records and time-tracking " aspect

misnome 2y ago

> One of the many lies in Silver Lake and WP Engine’s C&D was their claim that Automattic demanded money from them.... That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress So, it is true.

evv 2y ago
This is probably the strangest post I have read in a long time. "They claim that we demanded money from them around these dates.. not true!" "So here is the demand for money that we requested they sign, around these dates" Maybe I'm not reading this correctly but... it seems like the most obvious interpretation. Also, what is the purpose of listing all these dates when the two companies met? Without knowing the content of these discussions, this list doesn't remotely meet the community's request for transparency.
- jacobwg 2y ago
  The dates feel like intentional deception. The community question is "how long have you been discussing trademark usage?" and the answer is "I had lunch in February 2023!" Like somebody not trying to be deceptive would say "we started talking about trademarks and a commercial relationship in February 2023", but that's not what this post says, and that's not the answer Matt has given in interviews, it's always this strange list of dates instead.
_cenw 2y ago
They asked for either - money directly to Automattic, not the WordPress Foundation. - employees working on WordPress core, at the direction of Automattic - including looking at their time sheets and employee files. Neither of this is "back into WordPress", it's "to Automattic". The company that often did prioritize their workers to work on features benefitting WordPress.com users. There actually used to be a constant for checking if running inside WPCOM in WP Core, but they seem to have removed it since. Let's not even talk about Jetpack and carving out shit from your core product, that gives me too many AOSP vs Play Services vibes. Either way, WP Engine is a competitor of Automattic. This is laughable. I hope they fork WordPress, because I'd feel uncomfortable contributing software to the benefit of such a bully (I am a former contibutor).

misnome 2y ago

It sure is wild to watch Wordpress burn it's entire reputation to the ground over this

ablation 2y ago
I genuinely can't believe some of what I'm seeing, as I said in another comment. If this is all Mullenweg, he needs some form of oversight right now telling him to stop communicating.
- mthoms 2y ago
  He recently claimed that his lawyers are encouraging him to carry on like this. It's mind boggling.

_cenw 2y ago

Do they think this makes them look good?

maxloh 2y ago

A non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company to demand payment from the for-profit's competitor, straight into the for-profit's pocket (assuming the WP Foundation has total control over wordpress.org). That's a really bad look, WordPress Foundation.

misnome 2y ago
> non-profit organization partners with a for-profit company I mean, "partners" in the sense of "The same person runs both"

mjburgess 2y ago

So, to be clear: if I want to start a company using wordpress as core technology, I should expect to be extorted for around 8% if I get successful enough. I cannot imagine "Automattic" has thought this through. There is no ransom agreement in open source, and the very basis of wordpress' success is the absence of such a thing. What company now, looking at this technology, would touch it with a 100ft pole?

wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
They've always been actively protecting their trademark. Also small companies or meetups using WordPress were asked to change that. I think they even have to do that legally to some degree to protect their trademark. WP Engine has build their success on piggybacking the WordPress trademark, their slogan is "Most Trusted WordPress Hosting and Beyond". It's probably fair they pay a fee for that. If they would just use the open source software & would market it as a blog-hosting they would most likely be in the clear.
- chx 2y ago
  > Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ https://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ How does "Most Trusted" differ from "best" which is allowed?
  - wouldbecouldbe 2y ago
    I think that's not the difference, if I read it correctly the difference is being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting. I think the big difference is also the marketing WP Engine is running full on The WordPress hosting.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      > being a WordPress Host, vs a hosting company offering wordpress hosting WPEngine is also offering Headless and WooCommerce as well as WordPress. So your point makes absolutely no sense.

proxysna 2y ago

>One of the many lies in Silver Lake and WP Engine’s C&D was their claim that Automattic demanded money from them moments before our CEO Matt Mullenweg gave his keynote at WordCamp US. >That is not true. Automattic asked for a verbal agreement that WP Engine would give some percentage of their revenue back into WordPress, either in the form of a trademark agreement or employee hours spent on core WordPress. Tomato-Tomato. Comedy gold.

znpy 2y ago
The guy from WP-Engine literally posted screenshot of texts from the WordPress guy demanding money in a ransom-style tone. At this point I hope this goes to court, so things can be properly examined according to law, otherwise it looks like childish tantrum.
- reddalo 2y ago
  > The guy from WP-Engine Who? Do you have a link?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    They are in the C&D WP Engine sent. Starting on the second page. https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-Desist-Letter-to-Automattic-and-Request-to-Preserve-Documents-Sent.pdf https://wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Cease-and-De...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bad_user 2y ago
Well, it is true that money wasn't the only option. And the quote is out of context. The article also gives a timetable of conversations that happened between Automattic and WP Engine well in advance; therefore, the demands shouldn't have been a surprise, as claimed.
- 2y ago

jefozabuss 2y ago

Automattic is cooking from that Unity cookbook

rizky05 2y ago

[dead]

benjaminwootton 2y ago

Some of these posts and the logic used look like a mental health issue than a negotiation.

InsomniacL 2y ago

Right or wrong, they just keep digging that hole.

pknerd 2y ago

From C&D document , Matt sounds like a bully to me

thanksgiving 2y ago

I don’t understand why Automattic is involved at all. I imagined this was between Wordpress dot org and WP engine or whatever. Nobody should ever have to pay automattic a dime. I came into this conversation fully in support of Wordpress dot org but the more I read into this the more it feels like I didn’t understand the situation between automattic and Wordpress dot org at all. I’m leaving the conversation thinking the relation between automattic and Wordpress dot org is one of tax avoidance. What am I missing?

bradfa 2y ago
WordPress dot org is basically fully funded and operated by Automattic. It seems that by default a WordPress installation will use WordPress dot org for many features and capabilities. WP Engine leaves this enabled on their hosted sites, so each WP Engine customer is effectively getting free access to an Automattic funded resource. Automattic wants to get paid back for this use, either in money or developer resources. Automattic's desire seems totally reasonable. Their execution of expressing that desire seems to be totally unreasonable.
- maxloh 2y ago
  Except there is a "Donate" link in the wordpress.org footer, which leads to The WordPress Foundation's donation page. On that page, it states: [0] > The WordPress Foundation is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization... I don’t find it reasonable for a non-profit organization to demand payment from users to one of its donors, Automattic, instead of encouraging donations to itself. [0]: https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/ https://wordpressfoundation.org/donate/
  - thanksgiving 2y ago
    Exactly. If Wordpress dot org demanded that companies that use foundation server resources pay the foundation, I’d be ok with that. Why is automattic involved in this conversation? I generally assume other people are smarter than more competent than I am, especially successful people like Matt. That’s why I asked the question. There has to be more to the story, right? Is it as simple as Matt didn’t even talk to a lawyer before doing all of this for whatever reason?

martin_a 2y ago

I can only repeat what I said the other day. This is all a huge pile of bullshit. Automattic does not like the competition, so they pick one actor in the WP ecosystem _randomly_ and try to force this on to them. For anybody who is running a service that uses WP this is a threat. You can't be sure that if you build on that ecosystem that one day Matt Mullenweg does not like you and will try to extort money from you, too.

GavinAnderegg 2y ago

The thing that bothers me most about this ordeal is there’s now a “hidden license” for WordPress. If Mullenweg thinks you’re not giving back enough, then free software is no longer free. Rather than a specific term sheet and a list of meetings, I would like to better understand when this new license comes into effect. At the moment it seems like it’s only required when Mullenweg is upset with you. I wrote a bit more to this effect here: https://anderegg.ca/2024/09/28/the-hidden-wordpress-license https://anderegg.ca/2024/09/28/the-hidden-wordpress-license

bad_user 2y ago
This has always been the case with all Open-Source products contributed by companies, due to the complexity of IP laws. Patents are the most problematic. It's why it's important, for instance, for the OSS license to also include a patents-grant that applies to derived works as well, something that (at least in the past) companies like Microsoft and Facebook failed to provide. Furthermore, even Open-Source foundations and non-profits have trademarks that they protect. Once upon a time, Debian had problems with patching Firefox, as Mozilla did not accept the modifications, leading to a Debian-specific rebranding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_trademark_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian%E2%80%93Mozilla_tradema... This issue is also about the free use of WordPress.org APIs. This is like expecting forks of Chromium or of Android to have continued (free) use of Google Play. Obviously, Google Play is not really included in the OSS deal, and it is only through the continued benevolence of Google that alternatives still have access to it.

akaike 2y ago

Matt is a “little” of his rocker

bradfa 2y ago

All this drama is just convincing me to never want to use WordPress.

markx2 2y ago

This thread went from #1 to buried.

GavinAnderegg 2y ago
I’ve been fascinated by this WordPress story, but HN seems to really dislike it. I’m assuming mods are pushing posts like this down, but I’m not sure what rule/norm they're breaking?
- r721 2y ago
  It could be user flags too: >Although submissions cannot be downvoted, flags act as a "super" downvote and enough flags will strongly reduce the rank of the submission, or kill it entirely (flagging is supposed to be used for submissions which break the site guidelines, but that isn't always the case in practice). https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented
Semaphor 2y ago
It had more comments than upvote-points, HN automatically buries high comment to point ratio threads to avoid incitement. Not sure if that applies here, just throwing that out as a possible explanation.
- ablation 2y ago
  The thought did cross my mind that, given the focus it has had on HN over the past few days, there may be a concerted effort to try and bury things like this where the sentiment is overwhelmingly against WP/MM/Automattic. Tinfoil hat territory I know, but this really did drop like a stone. It's really the only time in all my years on HN I was genuinely surprised to not find the post 'where I left it' on the front page after a few minutes away.
  - rob 2y ago
    My post from yesterday, also buried quickly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41712617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41712617

bbx 2y ago

I've used Wordpress since 2006, when, in need of a dynamic website, and not knowing any programming language, I managed to build my own custom WP theme within a couple of weeks. WP's ease of use has always been its main asset. I've built dozens of professional custom themes for paying clients for the best part of a decade. However, two aspects of WP that were always pain points were: local development and hosting. That's where WP Engine provided solutions. While being more expensive than other platforms, hosting a WP website with them is a great experience, whether in terms of installing, managing, or reliability. And recently, I had to update an old WP instance for a client. Having no local install available, I looked into new tools to setup one. Turns out WP Engine's tool called "Local" is what Automattic should have provided 10 years ago. It's a fantastic piece of software that "just works"! It seems like Automattic feels jealous that another company managed to build upon their own open source product to provide a better experience in every aspect (development, managing, hosting) and are making bank. Good for WP Engine.

hackerbeat 2y ago
Nah: https://developer.wordpress.com/studio/ https://developer.wordpress.com/studio/
- bbx 2y ago
  This was launched in April 2024, not even 6 months ago. LocalWP was launched in 2017. So Automattic launched a similar tool to their competitor 7 years later? You're just proving my point mate.
  - hackerbeat 2y ago
    https://x.com/SashaBaksht/status/1842183110814789889 https://x.com/SashaBaksht/status/1842183110814789889

gman83 2y ago

What is a good alternative to WordPress? I don't want a headless CMS, I want a CMS I can log into and edit pages & CPTs. Ideally using a pagebuilder like Bricks. I don't want to ever have to open a code editor. Is there a good alternative?