3 ms·

There's this interesting comment by "John Day" on that page, does anyone have more context/detail?

Joel_Mckay 2y ago
There were several competing standards on the early networks, and almost every ambitious commercial entity wanted to embed their licensed IP into the webs core transport layer or lower on the OSI stack. We take for granted the inter-connectivity of most modern equipment, but to this day companies still try to create synthetic technology monopolies to cash-in. i.e. to sustain a tenuous service commodity out of something that has essentially been free since the mid 1990s. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ Philosophically it doesn't matter TCP is imperfect, but rather that the inter-connectivity is compatible with the inertia of the installed infrastructure. One can indeed optimistically ignore the TCP connection drop and syn part of standards to tunnel/reverse-proxy though certain censorship firewalls... but it still does not make it safe for the people that live under such regimes. Does this make it more or less clear? =3
- Bluecobra 2y ago
  > We take for granted the inter-connectivity of most modern equipment, but to this day companies still try to create synthetic technology monopolies to cash-in. i.e. to sustain a tenuous service commodity out of something that has essentially been free since the mid 1990s. This is why as a network engineer I always advocate for open standards everywhere I can to avoid vendor lock-in. The classic one is using OSPF instead of EIGRP on Cisco routers (or their other proprietary protocols). Nowadays this is much tricker with cloud computing and black box stuff like SDN/SDWAN.
  - Joel_Mckay 2y ago
    Most good engineers I've met follow the same open standards prioritization recommendation. The drama that goes on inside Cisco could fill a soap opera season. =3
despair3435 2y ago
You can find the original paper by Watson online which explains it in more detail. The 3 way handshake is in fact not necessary. I believe the delta-t protocol was one of the available protocols in OSI as well. TCP/IP being the standard now is not due to the fact that it was technically the best. In fact, there are multiple shortcomings. The delta-t protocol is also used in RINA, which was invented by John Day. It is also used in Ouroboros (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.09707 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.09707), and I can confirm it works. ;)
- tonyg 2y ago
  The actual delta-t protocol spec has historically been quite hard to find, but is freely available from here: https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5542785 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5542785 Also related and of interest in this connexion: CurveCP and its handshake, https://curvecp.org/packets.html https://curvecp.org/packets.html
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whycombagator 2y ago
No, but I found the comment more interesting after learning what his background is (based on the name/email left in the comment): > John Day has been involved in research and development of computer networks since 1970, when his group at the University of Illinois was the 12th node on ARPANet (precursor to the Internet) and has developed and designed protocols for everything from the data link layer to the application layer. Also making fundamental contributions to research on distributed databases. He managed the development of the OSI reference model, naming and addressing, and a major contributor to the upper-layer architecture. He was a major contributor to the development of network management architecture, working in the area since 1984 and building and deploying LAN products and a network management system, a decade ahead of comparable systems. Mr. Day has published Patterns in Network Architecture: A Return to Fundamentals (Prentice Hall, 2008), which has been characterized (embarrassingly) as “the most important book on network protocols in general and the Internet in particular ever written.” The book analyzes the fundamental flaws in the Internet and proposes what appears to be the only path forward. Today Mr. Day splits his time between making this new path a reality and teaching at Boston University. Mr. Day is also a recognized scholar in the history of cartography focusing on 17thC China, and is past President of the Boston Map Society.

There were several competing standards on the early networks, and almost every ambitious commercial entity wanted to embed their licensed IP into the webs core transport layer or lower on the OSI stack. We take for granted the inter-connectivity of most modern equipment, but to this day companies still try to create synthetic technology monopolies to cash-in. i.e. to sustain a tenuous service commodity out of something that has essentially been free since the mid 1990s. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/ Philosophically it doesn't matter TCP is imperfect, but rather that the inter-connectivity is compatible with the inertia of the installed infrastructure. One can indeed optimistically ignore the TCP connection drop and syn part of standards to tunnel/reverse-proxy though certain censorship firewalls... but it still does not make it safe for the people that live under such regimes. Does this make it more or less clear? =3

Bluecobra 2y ago
> We take for granted the inter-connectivity of most modern equipment, but to this day companies still try to create synthetic technology monopolies to cash-in. i.e. to sustain a tenuous service commodity out of something that has essentially been free since the mid 1990s. This is why as a network engineer I always advocate for open standards everywhere I can to avoid vendor lock-in. The classic one is using OSPF instead of EIGRP on Cisco routers (or their other proprietary protocols). Nowadays this is much tricker with cloud computing and black box stuff like SDN/SDWAN.
- Joel_Mckay 2y ago
  Most good engineers I've met follow the same open standards prioritization recommendation. The drama that goes on inside Cisco could fill a soap opera season. =3

despair3435 2y ago

You can find the original paper by Watson online which explains it in more detail. The 3 way handshake is in fact not necessary. I believe the delta-t protocol was one of the available protocols in OSI as well. TCP/IP being the standard now is not due to the fact that it was technically the best. In fact, there are multiple shortcomings. The delta-t protocol is also used in RINA, which was invented by John Day. It is also used in Ouroboros (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.09707 https://arxiv.org/pdf/2001.09707), and I can confirm it works. ;)

tonyg 2y ago
The actual delta-t protocol spec has historically been quite hard to find, but is freely available from here: https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5542785 https://www.osti.gov/biblio/5542785 Also related and of interest in this connexion: CurveCP and its handshake, https://curvecp.org/packets.html https://curvecp.org/packets.html

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

whycombagator 2y ago

No, but I found the comment more interesting after learning what his background is (based on the name/email left in the comment): > John Day has been involved in research and development of computer networks since 1970, when his group at the University of Illinois was the 12th node on ARPANet (precursor to the Internet) and has developed and designed protocols for everything from the data link layer to the application layer. Also making fundamental contributions to research on distributed databases. He managed the development of the OSI reference model, naming and addressing, and a major contributor to the upper-layer architecture. He was a major contributor to the development of network management architecture, working in the area since 1984 and building and deploying LAN products and a network management system, a decade ahead of comparable systems. Mr. Day has published Patterns in Network Architecture: A Return to Fundamentals (Prentice Hall, 2008), which has been characterized (embarrassingly) as “the most important book on network protocols in general and the Internet in particular ever written.” The book analyzes the fundamental flaws in the Internet and proposes what appears to be the only path forward. Today Mr. Day splits his time between making this new path a reality and teaching at Boston University. Mr. Day is also a recognized scholar in the history of cartography focusing on 17thC China, and is past President of the Boston Map Society.