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> I think it's also useful to note that Mullenweg wasn't demanding 8% of WPE's revenue, but rather an allocation of WPE revenue to WordPress ecosystem developme

> I think it's also useful to note that Mullenweg wasn't demanding 8% of WPE's revenue, but rather an allocation of WPE revenue to WordPress ecosystem development (by staff members on WPE's own team), with the revenue to Automattic (or whoever, I forget) as an in-kind payment option.† That is a much more reasonable-sounding ask than simply forking over cash to Mullenweg's own business. I think the question is, in exchange for what? I think the reason that all this is controversial, is it feels a bit like a shake-down. Give us some resources, otherwise, while, that is a nice wordpress business you have there, it would be a shame if something happened to it.

threeseed 2y ago
> it feels a bit like a shake-down It is a shake down. And the problem with negotiating with people like this is that it never stops. There will never be enough contributions and money.
- Terretta 2y ago
  > the problem ... with people like this is that it never stops. By contrast, this doesn't make WPE look good: WP Engine had been siphoning “tens of millions” of dollars away from Woo’s revenue share partnership with Stripe into its own coffers. It’s understood WP Engine has been swapping out WooCommerce’s Stripe Connect Account information for its own when a user installs WooCommerce. That's the sort of thing that, if a proven problem, could seem less like a shakedown and more like active wire fraud. EDIT: As replies note, GPL. OK, but I realize I grew up thinking if someone gives me software it isn't to rip out their revenue model and replace it with mine, it is for me to do my own value added thing with it. Meaning, the stealth edit might not be wrong, but still seems uncool.
  - djbusby 2y ago
    Or at least misleading the consumer - which is also not cool.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    That is completely legal and ethical. WooCommerce is an open source, GPL project which allows people to modify the code in any way, including changing Stripe details, provided that they comply with the terms of the license. Licenses are a fundamental part of open source precisely so that in situations like this everyone knows the rules of the game.
  - kemayo 2y ago
    It might be sketchy, but WooCommerce is a GPL project: https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce/blob/trunk/plugins/woocommerce/license.txt https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce/blob/trunk/plugin... This is explicitly the sort of thing that WP Engine would be allowed to do, and if Automattic isn't happy about this then perhaps they should have chosen non-free licenses. Basically: "wire fraud" is an extremely overblown claim. Nothing criminal is happening here, because they're complying with the license. Is it ethical? Debatable.
  - chuckadams 2y ago
    WPE does not touch WooCommerce in any way. WooCommerce is a plugin that is itself extended through more plugins, including ones for working with payment providers such as Stripe. WPE makes a Stripe payment plugin that works with multiple eCommerce setups, including WooCommerce. WPE's plugin naturally uses WPE's affiliate code. Matt cannot stand competition, that's all.
    - Terretta 2y ago
      Thanks — this makes more sense than the article's phrasing.
  - isabelc 2y ago
    Isn't it just that WP Engine made their own Stripe plugin for Woo? Why is this being called out as wrong?
tptacek 2y ago
The use of WordPress.org shared resources and the WordPress trademarks? I think this isn't all that complicated.
- gamblor956 2y ago
  The use of which were already allowed under the existing open source licenses... In other words, a shakedown by another name. Also, suggesting that WPE's contributions to the non-profit could be satisfied by paying Matt's for-profit company is almost the textbook definition of private inurement. I don't think he had lawyers familiar with non-profit law clear that offer before he made it. If I worked for the IRS right now WP and Matt would be pretty high on the list of organizations to take a closer look at.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Can you be more specific about where the WordPress licensing grants the trademark usage WPE is using? WordPress is GPL2, which doesn't have a lot to say about trademarks.
    - graeme 2y ago
      Isn't it just the law? Not obvious that terms such as "Wordpress Host" violate nominative fair use. They're commonly used throughout the industry as well.
      - tptacek 2y ago
        I would like to understand what "[t]he use of which were already allowed under the existing open source licenses..." from the preceding comment meant. I'm not a lawyer. Nominative fair use is complicated, as is WPE's use of the WP marks. All I can hope for here is to understand what claims people are making.
        graeme 2y ago
        Ah, fair point. Yeah I agree, the open source licenses have no bearing on the matter. Only permissions would come from either trademark law or a negotiated agreement.

threeseed 2y ago

> it feels a bit like a shake-down It is a shake down. And the problem with negotiating with people like this is that it never stops. There will never be enough contributions and money.

Terretta 2y ago
> the problem ... with people like this is that it never stops. By contrast, this doesn't make WPE look good: WP Engine had been siphoning “tens of millions” of dollars away from Woo’s revenue share partnership with Stripe into its own coffers. It’s understood WP Engine has been swapping out WooCommerce’s Stripe Connect Account information for its own when a user installs WooCommerce. That's the sort of thing that, if a proven problem, could seem less like a shakedown and more like active wire fraud. EDIT: As replies note, GPL. OK, but I realize I grew up thinking if someone gives me software it isn't to rip out their revenue model and replace it with mine, it is for me to do my own value added thing with it. Meaning, the stealth edit might not be wrong, but still seems uncool.
- djbusby 2y ago
  Or at least misleading the consumer - which is also not cool.
- threeseed 2y ago
  That is completely legal and ethical. WooCommerce is an open source, GPL project which allows people to modify the code in any way, including changing Stripe details, provided that they comply with the terms of the license. Licenses are a fundamental part of open source precisely so that in situations like this everyone knows the rules of the game.
- kemayo 2y ago
  It might be sketchy, but WooCommerce is a GPL project: https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce/blob/trunk/plugins/woocommerce/license.txt https://github.com/woocommerce/woocommerce/blob/trunk/plugin... This is explicitly the sort of thing that WP Engine would be allowed to do, and if Automattic isn't happy about this then perhaps they should have chosen non-free licenses. Basically: "wire fraud" is an extremely overblown claim. Nothing criminal is happening here, because they're complying with the license. Is it ethical? Debatable.
- chuckadams 2y ago
  WPE does not touch WooCommerce in any way. WooCommerce is a plugin that is itself extended through more plugins, including ones for working with payment providers such as Stripe. WPE makes a Stripe payment plugin that works with multiple eCommerce setups, including WooCommerce. WPE's plugin naturally uses WPE's affiliate code. Matt cannot stand competition, that's all.
  - Terretta 2y ago
    Thanks — this makes more sense than the article's phrasing.
- isabelc 2y ago
  Isn't it just that WP Engine made their own Stripe plugin for Woo? Why is this being called out as wrong?

tptacek 2y ago

The use of WordPress.org shared resources and the WordPress trademarks? I think this isn't all that complicated.

gamblor956 2y ago
The use of which were already allowed under the existing open source licenses... In other words, a shakedown by another name. Also, suggesting that WPE's contributions to the non-profit could be satisfied by paying Matt's for-profit company is almost the textbook definition of private inurement. I don't think he had lawyers familiar with non-profit law clear that offer before he made it. If I worked for the IRS right now WP and Matt would be pretty high on the list of organizations to take a closer look at.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Can you be more specific about where the WordPress licensing grants the trademark usage WPE is using? WordPress is GPL2, which doesn't have a lot to say about trademarks.
  - graeme 2y ago
    Isn't it just the law? Not obvious that terms such as "Wordpress Host" violate nominative fair use. They're commonly used throughout the industry as well.
    - tptacek 2y ago
      I would like to understand what "[t]he use of which were already allowed under the existing open source licenses..." from the preceding comment meant. I'm not a lawyer. Nominative fair use is complicated, as is WPE's use of the WP marks. All I can hope for here is to understand what claims people are making.
      - graeme 2y ago
        Ah, fair point. Yeah I agree, the open source licenses have no bearing on the matter. Only permissions would come from either trademark law or a negotiated agreement.