5 ms·

It's ban photoshop all over again. It's just the new reality. Porn is not even the worst thing. If anything it can make real photos/videos harder to get viral.

by comboy 2y ago

It's ban photoshop all over again. It's just the new reality. Porn is not even the worst thing. If anything it can make real photos/videos harder to get viral. But augmentation will be (if not already is) used to make very tiny adjustments, like you make one candidate/celebrity face slightly more symmetrical and the other one less, change their gait just a little bit. These changes are non-perceptible, are not interesting enough to make a scandal, and they can have huge impact on how people perceive other people. I mean, I am not suggesting that it isn't a puppet show without those, but the game is evolving.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
The above sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn’t have a daughter.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Even trying to be helpful here you're still just centering men's feelings about "their" women.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    Do you seriously think most women are on board with this? Many do not know it’s happening. Those that do and aren’t chronically online find it horrifying and even traumatizing.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      No believe me I know, I have heard women talking about this coming for years. It was already a very common harassment technique before AI made it free, easy, and accessible. You can tell how few women are involved at the key stages of building new tech because of how rarely obvious harassment vectors are accounted for during development. The problem I have is with trying to get men to care about it because it affects their daughter or whatever.
      - gjsman-1000 2y ago
        [flagged]
        giraffe_lady 2y ago
        I do have a TBI but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
        gjsman-1000 2y ago
        A. Idea, not person. B. To restate, heaven forbid a man take action based on what people he loves would want. All motives must be purely self-satisfying, or purely driven by the affected.
      - ultimafan 2y ago
        >You can tell how few women are involved at the key stages of building new tech because of how rarely obvious harassment vectors are accounted for during development Interesting point to think about- it certainly would have helped. But I also genuinely don't see how someone developing this kind of technology, who has had even a brief glimpse of online culture any point in the last 20 years, didn't immediately see what it would be used for. It almost feels like "progress" with malicious intent. Or an extreme case of apathy towards societal consequences. >The problem I have is with trying to get men to care about it because it affects their daughter or whatever. Lot of people are too self centered to care about any issue unless it directly impacts them. If it gets people thinking about how it affects their loved ones I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
        giraffe_lady 2y ago
        > If it gets people thinking about how it affects their loved ones I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just shitty both to men and women. Men don't care about an issue unless it affects their daughters? They don't have other women they care about? Mothers, friends, mentors? Or for that matter sons who are also vulnerable to abuse and manipulation? The men I know are better than this. And it positions women as being just a motivation for the actions of men, whose right relationship is to be protected rather than being actors in their own right. If you find this tactic sound then feel free to use it but I think there are better ways.
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      I think most women aren't on board with people drawing erotic pictures of them with pen and paper either. I think most women aren't on board with their peers fantasizing about them - even if it's completely limited to their imagination.
ultimafan 2y ago
Photoshopping something convincing has a much bigger bar to entry than (as far as I understand it) generation of deepfakes now. Lots of time/practice invested even for one convincing image. From what I can see the issue here is that this problem with AI can potentially become much much more widespread because the amount of work required is pretty much none and gets lower as models get better. It sounds like someone using deepfakes to ie extort people can just cast a much wider net by just scraping/dumping masses of images into a generator to create a multitude of convincing pictures of many different people instead of having to focus their time and effort on picking a single target and creating fakes manually.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> ban photoshop all over again. It's just the new reality. We didn't solve teens doctoring inappropriate images of their classmates by banning Photoshop or accepting it as the new normal. We solved it by passing laws which criminalise the behaviour and enforcing them to deter the behaviour. Technology influences society. But plenty of social mores are almost universally respected despite being difficult to enforce. Possible and difficult to enforce doesn't force permissibility.
- gpm 2y ago
  I was a teen post photoshop and it was just... never an issue. It never occured to me. No one ever mentioned it to me as a possibility. If someone did it would have struck me as weird and as way too much work. Photography class in school (in which we learned to use photoshop) didn't mention any acceptable use guidelines or anything. As far as I know no one in my school ever did anything distasteful with photoshop. I don't accept the idea that "passing laws and enforcing them to deter behavior" was the cause of the lack of issues, because to be a deterrent us teens would have had to been aware of the laws.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > was a teen post photoshop and it was just... never an issue. It never occured to me Same. And same. Drawing inappropriate pictures of your classmates was creepy before. Making Photoshop or AI porn remains so now. Most people won't do it. But there is active social reinforcement that keeps it from becoming "the new reality." > don't accept the idea that "passing laws and enforcing them to deter behavior" was the cause of the lack of issue Fair enough. The jargon was cyberbullying, and there was absolutely legislative activity around horrific examples. But the principal mechanism of action probably wasn't a direct fear of getting caught and punished, but the prompted discussion reinforcing and extending the norm.
- 101011 2y ago
  Laws can help, but I'm most concerned with states leveraging this to influence foreign campaigns. There will be a time when the Trump "grab them by the you know what" style scandal will just be met with sceptism. Where do you go when even video evidence can't be seen as the truth?
0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
Photoshop was never built as an easy tool so powerful that even grandma can produce photo-realistic fake images in seconds. The new wave of AI powered editing tools are clearly on a new level. This is like bringing your howitzer to a gun debate because they are kinda similar.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > new wave of AI powered editing tools are clearly on a new level For the time being, the easiest-to-use tools are centrally run. That makes monitoring and enforcement easier.
  - ssalka 2y ago
    A centrally-managed app will always be easier to use than a local self-service tool. But those local apps will keep trying to converge towards the ease of the hosted apps. Over time I expect the difference will become negligible (i.e. a 1-click install and it actually works)
- comboy 2y ago
  Generative AI is much easier than photoshop the same way that photoshop was much easier than trying to alter photos any other way. In both cases it is a completely new level.
RajT88 2y ago
Probably half the shorts on Facebook are pretending not to be AI generated now. And a similar number of the photos in your feed advertising groups.

by comboy 2y ago

gjsman-1000 2y ago

The above sounds like the opinion of someone who doesn’t have a daughter.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
Even trying to be helpful here you're still just centering men's feelings about "their" women.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Do you seriously think most women are on board with this? Many do not know it’s happening. Those that do and aren’t chronically online find it horrifying and even traumatizing.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    No believe me I know, I have heard women talking about this coming for years. It was already a very common harassment technique before AI made it free, easy, and accessible. You can tell how few women are involved at the key stages of building new tech because of how rarely obvious harassment vectors are accounted for during development. The problem I have is with trying to get men to care about it because it affects their daughter or whatever.
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        I do have a TBI but I don't see what that has to do with anything.
        gjsman-1000 2y ago
        A. Idea, not person. B. To restate, heaven forbid a man take action based on what people he loves would want. All motives must be purely self-satisfying, or purely driven by the affected.
    - ultimafan 2y ago
      >You can tell how few women are involved at the key stages of building new tech because of how rarely obvious harassment vectors are accounted for during development Interesting point to think about- it certainly would have helped. But I also genuinely don't see how someone developing this kind of technology, who has had even a brief glimpse of online culture any point in the last 20 years, didn't immediately see what it would be used for. It almost feels like "progress" with malicious intent. Or an extreme case of apathy towards societal consequences. >The problem I have is with trying to get men to care about it because it affects their daughter or whatever. Lot of people are too self centered to care about any issue unless it directly impacts them. If it gets people thinking about how it affects their loved ones I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        > If it gets people thinking about how it affects their loved ones I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just shitty both to men and women. Men don't care about an issue unless it affects their daughters? They don't have other women they care about? Mothers, friends, mentors? Or for that matter sons who are also vulnerable to abuse and manipulation? The men I know are better than this. And it positions women as being just a motivation for the actions of men, whose right relationship is to be protected rather than being actors in their own right. If you find this tactic sound then feel free to use it but I think there are better ways.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    I think most women aren't on board with people drawing erotic pictures of them with pen and paper either. I think most women aren't on board with their peers fantasizing about them - even if it's completely limited to their imagination.

ultimafan 2y ago

Photoshopping something convincing has a much bigger bar to entry than (as far as I understand it) generation of deepfakes now. Lots of time/practice invested even for one convincing image. From what I can see the issue here is that this problem with AI can potentially become much much more widespread because the amount of work required is pretty much none and gets lower as models get better. It sounds like someone using deepfakes to ie extort people can just cast a much wider net by just scraping/dumping masses of images into a generator to create a multitude of convincing pictures of many different people instead of having to focus their time and effort on picking a single target and creating fakes manually.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> ban photoshop all over again. It's just the new reality. We didn't solve teens doctoring inappropriate images of their classmates by banning Photoshop or accepting it as the new normal. We solved it by passing laws which criminalise the behaviour and enforcing them to deter the behaviour. Technology influences society. But plenty of social mores are almost universally respected despite being difficult to enforce. Possible and difficult to enforce doesn't force permissibility.

gpm 2y ago
I was a teen post photoshop and it was just... never an issue. It never occured to me. No one ever mentioned it to me as a possibility. If someone did it would have struck me as weird and as way too much work. Photography class in school (in which we learned to use photoshop) didn't mention any acceptable use guidelines or anything. As far as I know no one in my school ever did anything distasteful with photoshop. I don't accept the idea that "passing laws and enforcing them to deter behavior" was the cause of the lack of issues, because to be a deterrent us teens would have had to been aware of the laws.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > was a teen post photoshop and it was just... never an issue. It never occured to me Same. And same. Drawing inappropriate pictures of your classmates was creepy before. Making Photoshop or AI porn remains so now. Most people won't do it. But there is active social reinforcement that keeps it from becoming "the new reality." > don't accept the idea that "passing laws and enforcing them to deter behavior" was the cause of the lack of issue Fair enough. The jargon was cyberbullying, and there was absolutely legislative activity around horrific examples. But the principal mechanism of action probably wasn't a direct fear of getting caught and punished, but the prompted discussion reinforcing and extending the norm.
101011 2y ago
Laws can help, but I'm most concerned with states leveraging this to influence foreign campaigns. There will be a time when the Trump "grab them by the you know what" style scandal will just be met with sceptism. Where do you go when even video evidence can't be seen as the truth?

0x000xca0xfe 2y ago

Photoshop was never built as an easy tool so powerful that even grandma can produce photo-realistic fake images in seconds. The new wave of AI powered editing tools are clearly on a new level. This is like bringing your howitzer to a gun debate because they are kinda similar.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> new wave of AI powered editing tools are clearly on a new level For the time being, the easiest-to-use tools are centrally run. That makes monitoring and enforcement easier.
- ssalka 2y ago
  A centrally-managed app will always be easier to use than a local self-service tool. But those local apps will keep trying to converge towards the ease of the hosted apps. Over time I expect the difference will become negligible (i.e. a 1-click install and it actually works)
comboy 2y ago
Generative AI is much easier than photoshop the same way that photoshop was much easier than trying to alter photos any other way. In both cases it is a completely new level.

RajT88 2y ago

Probably half the shorts on Facebook are pretending not to be AI generated now. And a similar number of the photos in your feed advertising groups.