5 ms·

Pine martens return to Dartmoor after 150-year absence

82 points by zeristor 2y ago

cmsefton 2y ago
> Studies have also shown the pine martens are effective predators of grey squirrels, giving hope that they may provide a natural control for the introduced squirrel, which damages trees in commercial plantations and has virtually wiped out the red squirrel in England. If, like me, you were wondering whether they also predate red squirrels, apparently pine martens hunt and eat grey squirrels far more, as they're able to easily raid grey squirrel nests. Red squirrels have evolved alongside pine martens and have better awareness to the threat they pose. This article was informative: https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/pine-martens-predate-on-grey-squirrels-more-than-red-squirrels https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/pine-martens-predate-o...
- zeristor 2y ago
  I believe red squirrels are lighter than pine martens, and so can go out further on branches, whereas grey squirrels can’t. I’m guessing they’ll be able to reintroduce red squirrels in these areas in due course.
  - Tade0 2y ago
    I guess the key indicator for the martens is that grey squirrels are simply a larger meal.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    Sometimes they might go further on suitable thin branches, but I doubt that this matters much. I have never heard of a case when a marten could not advance towards a squirrel due to fear of breaking the branch. What red squirrels can do and martens cannot do, is to jump down from the tree from a relatively great height without injury, due to their low weight and fluffy hair and then climb into another tree, far from the marten. It is likely that this behavior of some squirrels is what has lead to the evolution of the flying squirrels.
- sva_ 2y ago
  Seems like there are some squirrel wars going on in the UK https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/red-squirrels-beat-out-grey-rivals-in-fight-for-survival-btd99ccdg https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/red-squirrels-b...
- raesene9 2y ago
  Anecdotally I can say that red squirrels and Pine Martens can co-exist quite happily, as I live in an area where we see both regularly and the presence of the Pine Martens doesn't seem to intimidate the squirrels or reduce their numbers significantly. Also turns out that Pine Martens are quite fond of peanuts.
arpinum 2y ago
[flagged]
- dflock 2y ago
  Good? Giving the tiniest little shit about nature and not wiping out the entire biosphere to build super low density housing over everything is the least we can do.
  - phatfish 2y ago
    I might agree, if high-density housing in England wasn't coupled with laughable rights for the owners of flats/apartments. The current leasehold system needs to be replaced, but I doubt anything will change even with the new government.
    - frereubu 2y ago
      The way you've phrased this comes across as a counterpoint, but both of these things can be true and need fixing. It doesn't have to be either / or.
  - arpinum 2y ago
    Not good. There is a spectrum of choices between not having enough reservoirs and power generation on one end and paving over the entire country on the other. I would trade having bats confused at night in order to have more housing within 2 miles of a major city.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ninalanyon 2y ago
      Why not have more housing in the city? There's lots of space in the UK town I come from that is very poorly utilized. As for power generation, solar panels can coexist with quite a lot of wildlife.
- 2y ago
pfdietz 2y ago
I was a bit confused because there's a related species in North America, Martes americana, that is also sometimes called the pine marten (more properly, the American marten or American pine marten). The European species is Martes martes. The American species clearly doesn't extirpate gray squirrels, but in North America red and gray squirrels do coexist. However, these red squirrels are also a different species, Tamiasciurus hudsonicus, not the European species, Sciurus vulgaris. The American pine marten is a predator of the American red squirrel. Squirrel taxonomy seems to be in a state of flux at present due to DNA information becoming available.
- card_zero 2y ago
  > However, these red squirrels are also a different species Less tufty ears, more violent.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    No Beatrix Potter character for these psychos.
SonOfLilit 2y ago
Apart from being cute, beautiful woodland creatures, pine martens are famously the most sympathetic tech interviewers: https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  That's such a good tangent that I had to upvote. I've read it before, but it's well worth re-reading.
- mrec 2y ago
  "snicker-slithing susurrential warrens" is just insanely beautiful.
riedel 2y ago
Just quickly skimmed the article but does the article answer why they seem to be everywhere in Europe except for England ? [0] [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/European_Pine_Marten_area.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/European...
- cmsefton 2y ago
  > Pine martens were driven to extinction in England at the turn of the 20th century by the loss of forests and persecution, with gamekeepers in particular targeting the animals for preying upon pheasants and poultry.

82 points by zeristor 2y ago

> Studies have also shown the pine martens are effective predators of grey squirrels, giving hope that they may provide a natural control for the introduced squirrel, which damages trees in commercial plantations and has virtually wiped out the red squirrel in England. If, like me, you were wondering whether they also predate red squirrels, apparently pine martens hunt and eat grey squirrels far more, as they're able to easily raid grey squirrel nests. Red squirrels have evolved alongside pine martens and have better awareness to the threat they pose. This article was informative: https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/pine-martens-predate-on-grey-squirrels-more-than-red-squirrels https://www.discoverwildlife.com/news/pine-martens-predate-o...

zeristor 2y ago
I believe red squirrels are lighter than pine martens, and so can go out further on branches, whereas grey squirrels can’t. I’m guessing they’ll be able to reintroduce red squirrels in these areas in due course.
- Tade0 2y ago
  I guess the key indicator for the martens is that grey squirrels are simply a larger meal.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  Sometimes they might go further on suitable thin branches, but I doubt that this matters much. I have never heard of a case when a marten could not advance towards a squirrel due to fear of breaking the branch. What red squirrels can do and martens cannot do, is to jump down from the tree from a relatively great height without injury, due to their low weight and fluffy hair and then climb into another tree, far from the marten. It is likely that this behavior of some squirrels is what has lead to the evolution of the flying squirrels.
sva_ 2y ago
Seems like there are some squirrel wars going on in the UK https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/red-squirrels-beat-out-grey-rivals-in-fight-for-survival-btd99ccdg https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/red-squirrels-b...
raesene9 2y ago
Anecdotally I can say that red squirrels and Pine Martens can co-exist quite happily, as I live in an area where we see both regularly and the presence of the Pine Martens doesn't seem to intimidate the squirrels or reduce their numbers significantly. Also turns out that Pine Martens are quite fond of peanuts.

arpinum 2y ago

[flagged]

dflock 2y ago
Good? Giving the tiniest little shit about nature and not wiping out the entire biosphere to build super low density housing over everything is the least we can do.
- phatfish 2y ago
  I might agree, if high-density housing in England wasn't coupled with laughable rights for the owners of flats/apartments. The current leasehold system needs to be replaced, but I doubt anything will change even with the new government.
  - frereubu 2y ago
    The way you've phrased this comes across as a counterpoint, but both of these things can be true and need fixing. It doesn't have to be either / or.
- arpinum 2y ago
  Not good. There is a spectrum of choices between not having enough reservoirs and power generation on one end and paving over the entire country on the other. I would trade having bats confused at night in order to have more housing within 2 miles of a major city.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ninalanyon 2y ago
    Why not have more housing in the city? There's lots of space in the UK town I come from that is very poorly utilized. As for power generation, solar panels can coexist with quite a lot of wildlife.
2y ago

pfdietz 2y ago

I was a bit confused because there's a related species in North America, Martes americana, that is also sometimes called the pine marten (more properly, the American marten or American pine marten). The European species is Martes martes. The American species clearly doesn't extirpate gray squirrels, but in North America red and gray squirrels do coexist. However, these red squirrels are also a different species, Tamiasciurus hudsonicus, not the European species, Sciurus vulgaris. The American pine marten is a predator of the American red squirrel. Squirrel taxonomy seems to be in a state of flux at present due to DNA information becoming available.

card_zero 2y ago
> However, these red squirrels are also a different species Less tufty ears, more violent.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  No Beatrix Potter character for these psychos.

SonOfLilit 2y ago

Apart from being cute, beautiful woodland creatures, pine martens are famously the most sympathetic tech interviewers: https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/341-hexing-the-technical-interview

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
That's such a good tangent that I had to upvote. I've read it before, but it's well worth re-reading.
mrec 2y ago
"snicker-slithing susurrential warrens" is just insanely beautiful.

riedel 2y ago

Just quickly skimmed the article but does the article answer why they seem to be everywhere in Europe except for England ? [0] [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/European_Pine_Marten_area.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/European...

cmsefton 2y ago
> Pine martens were driven to extinction in England at the turn of the 20th century by the loss of forests and persecution, with gamekeepers in particular targeting the animals for preying upon pheasants and poultry.