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Ok, but it was inevitable Reddit wouldn't offer free services to businesses making profit off of their content forever. The creator must have wondered at some p

by Alupis 2y ago

Ok, but it was inevitable Reddit wouldn't offer free services to businesses making profit off of their content forever. The creator must have wondered at some point how long the free gravy was going to continue flowing? Why no exit plan of any kind, or even an attempt?

djxfade 2y ago
I never understood why Reddit couldn’t just have kept the API free, and embedded ads in the feed directly. They would get their ad revenue, and third party developers would actually help them make money.
- Alupis 2y ago
  Probably because it would be easy to filter those ads from the feeds. The facts were businesses like Apollo built themselves upon Reddit's value-proposition. The content is what the users wanted - and Reddit had the content. Apollo's value-add was making that content more accessible to users - at Reddit's expense. We can debate how Reddit handled the rollout - but the facts are businesses like Apollo offered little to Reddit in exchange for Reddit's content. People operating businesses based on someone else's data (moat) should have an exit plan for when the free ride ends.
  - sethaurus 2y ago
    From a legal point-of-view, yes, Reddit had control of the data and chose to alter the deal. And the app developer did have an exit plan: shutting down the app and refunding subscribers. The developer appears to have weighed his options, considered the strategy Reddit was communicating with the rollout of their API changes, and concluded that this was no longer a viable market. Many people expressed strong opinions about what the developer should do, but he appears to have remained calm and rational throughout the experience, and chose to walk away when it made sense. However: > The content is what the users wanted - and Reddit had the content... > ...in exchange for Reddit's content... > ...operating businesses based on someone else's data (moat)... Let's not fool ourselves: the data was created by and for the users, and it never belonged to Reddit in any moral sense. It's a regrettable externality of our legal framework that Reddit was able to withdraw their free API and prevent the community from accessing its own data how it saw fit.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      In no way can we consider the content on reddit to be owned by the users. By using reddit and posting, you agree to their terms - the content belongs to them. It's unreasonable to believe Reddit should continue offering free services to businesses that were making money off of Reddit's content.
      - blendergeek 2y ago
        From the Reddit TOS: > 5. Your Content > The Services may contain information, text, links, graphics, photos, videos, audio, streams, software, tools, or other materials (“Content”), including Content created with or submitted to the Services by you or through your Account (“Your Content”). We take no responsibility for and we do not expressly or implicitly endorse, support, or guarantee the completeness, truthfulness, accuracy, or reliability of any of Your Content. > By submitting Your Content to the Services, you represent and warrant that you have all rights, power, and authority necessary to grant the rights to Your Content contained within these Terms. Because you alone are responsible for Your Content, you may expose yourself to liability if you post or share Content without all necessary rights. > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2023 https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2...
        Alupis 2y ago
        Twice you have deliberately left out literally the most important bit. I'll quote it for you: > When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content. It's theirs the moment you click post - and there's nothing you can do about it.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The content wasn't Reddit's, it was simply hosted on Reddit. It was actually owned by the users, many of whom were using apps to benefit Reddit via additional content and moderation.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      Someone didn't read the TOS.
      - blendergeek 2y ago
        From the TOS: > 5. Your Content > The Services may contain information, text, links, graphics, photos, videos, audio, streams, software, tools, or other materials (“Content”), including Content created with or submitted to the Services by you or through your Account (“Your Content”). We take no responsibility for and we do not expressly or implicitly endorse, support, or guarantee the completeness, truthfulness, accuracy, or reliability of any of Your Content. > By submitting Your Content to the Services, you represent and warrant that you have all rights, power, and authority necessary to grant the rights to Your Content contained within these Terms. Because you alone are responsible for Your Content, you may expose yourself to liability if you post or share Content without all necessary rights. > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2023 https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2...
        Alupis 2y ago
        > but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content The most important bits you left out. You grant them a license to do anything they want with the data, including sell, use, etc. ie. it's theirs now.
      - AlotOfReading 2y ago
        I have actually. The way it's always worked for Reddit (and social media in general) is that you provide them a license to do things with the content, but the site doesn't take ownership of the content. This isn't a meaningless distinction either. It's a key part of Reddit's legal shield from all the illegal content they unknowingly host, via things like section 230.
blendergeek 2y ago
> it was inevitable Reddit wouldn't offer free services to businesses making profit off of their content forever Their content. The audacity. Reddit is built on users' content and on free moderation. Sure it was inevitable that Reddit would lock things down for profit. But lets not pretend that this is Reddit's content.
- Alupis 2y ago
  For the 3rd time you are entirely incorrect. I won't quote the TOS again for you, as I have done twice already. The moment you post to reddit, they can do anything they want with the content. It is now theirs. It's also naïve to say reddit was built upon users' content. Yes the content is the most important bit and the reasons users are there today - but that ignores all of the software and infrastructure that made it all possible. There's a reason reddit is what it is today, and it was not an accident.
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    For users TOS are entirely irrelevant on the internet anyway. Of course it is their decision to not embrace users in the end.
  - nsagent 2y ago
    > The moment you post to reddit, they can do anything they want with the content. It is now theirs. This is patently false. The content is not theirs, users grant Reddit a license to their content. See the TOS [1] you spoke of: > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: This isn't just some bit of semantics either. If you can contact the users, you could request a license for the content yourself. So really the only bastion Reddit has is technical measures for preventing scraping, since publicly accessible data is allowed to be scraped in the US due to legal precedent. That is, nothing in the TOS prevents other parties from displaying the data in other formats (as long as they don't use the API). The thing is, all the apps did make use of the API because they were not adversarial with Reddit, as opposed to webapps like libreddit that circumvent the API altogether. [1]: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement

by Alupis 2y ago

djxfade 2y ago

I never understood why Reddit couldn’t just have kept the API free, and embedded ads in the feed directly. They would get their ad revenue, and third party developers would actually help them make money.

Alupis 2y ago
Probably because it would be easy to filter those ads from the feeds. The facts were businesses like Apollo built themselves upon Reddit's value-proposition. The content is what the users wanted - and Reddit had the content. Apollo's value-add was making that content more accessible to users - at Reddit's expense. We can debate how Reddit handled the rollout - but the facts are businesses like Apollo offered little to Reddit in exchange for Reddit's content. People operating businesses based on someone else's data (moat) should have an exit plan for when the free ride ends.
- sethaurus 2y ago
  From a legal point-of-view, yes, Reddit had control of the data and chose to alter the deal. And the app developer did have an exit plan: shutting down the app and refunding subscribers. The developer appears to have weighed his options, considered the strategy Reddit was communicating with the rollout of their API changes, and concluded that this was no longer a viable market. Many people expressed strong opinions about what the developer should do, but he appears to have remained calm and rational throughout the experience, and chose to walk away when it made sense. However: > The content is what the users wanted - and Reddit had the content... > ...in exchange for Reddit's content... > ...operating businesses based on someone else's data (moat)... Let's not fool ourselves: the data was created by and for the users, and it never belonged to Reddit in any moral sense. It's a regrettable externality of our legal framework that Reddit was able to withdraw their free API and prevent the community from accessing its own data how it saw fit.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    In no way can we consider the content on reddit to be owned by the users. By using reddit and posting, you agree to their terms - the content belongs to them. It's unreasonable to believe Reddit should continue offering free services to businesses that were making money off of Reddit's content.
    - blendergeek 2y ago
      From the Reddit TOS: > 5. Your Content > The Services may contain information, text, links, graphics, photos, videos, audio, streams, software, tools, or other materials (“Content”), including Content created with or submitted to the Services by you or through your Account (“Your Content”). We take no responsibility for and we do not expressly or implicitly endorse, support, or guarantee the completeness, truthfulness, accuracy, or reliability of any of Your Content. > By submitting Your Content to the Services, you represent and warrant that you have all rights, power, and authority necessary to grant the rights to Your Content contained within these Terms. Because you alone are responsible for Your Content, you may expose yourself to liability if you post or share Content without all necessary rights. > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2023 https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2...
      - Alupis 2y ago
        Twice you have deliberately left out literally the most important bit. I'll quote it for you: > When Your Content is created with or submitted to the Services, you grant us a worldwide, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable, and sublicensable license to use, copy, modify, adapt, prepare derivative works of, distribute, store, perform, and display Your Content and any name, username, voice, or likeness provided in connection with Your Content in all media formats and channels now known or later developed anywhere in the world. This license includes the right for us to make Your Content available for syndication, broadcast, distribution, or publication by other companies, organizations, or individuals who partner with Reddit. You also agree that we may remove metadata associated with Your Content, and you irrevocably waive any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to Your Content. It's theirs the moment you click post - and there's nothing you can do about it.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The content wasn't Reddit's, it was simply hosted on Reddit. It was actually owned by the users, many of whom were using apps to benefit Reddit via additional content and moderation.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    Someone didn't read the TOS.
    - blendergeek 2y ago
      From the TOS: > 5. Your Content > The Services may contain information, text, links, graphics, photos, videos, audio, streams, software, tools, or other materials (“Content”), including Content created with or submitted to the Services by you or through your Account (“Your Content”). We take no responsibility for and we do not expressly or implicitly endorse, support, or guarantee the completeness, truthfulness, accuracy, or reliability of any of Your Content. > By submitting Your Content to the Services, you represent and warrant that you have all rights, power, and authority necessary to grant the rights to Your Content contained within these Terms. Because you alone are responsible for Your Content, you may expose yourself to liability if you post or share Content without all necessary rights. > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2023 https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement-september-25-2...
      - Alupis 2y ago
        > but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content The most important bits you left out. You grant them a license to do anything they want with the data, including sell, use, etc. ie. it's theirs now.
    - AlotOfReading 2y ago
      I have actually. The way it's always worked for Reddit (and social media in general) is that you provide them a license to do things with the content, but the site doesn't take ownership of the content. This isn't a meaningless distinction either. It's a key part of Reddit's legal shield from all the illegal content they unknowingly host, via things like section 230.

blendergeek 2y ago

> it was inevitable Reddit wouldn't offer free services to businesses making profit off of their content forever Their content. The audacity. Reddit is built on users' content and on free moderation. Sure it was inevitable that Reddit would lock things down for profit. But lets not pretend that this is Reddit's content.

Alupis 2y ago
For the 3rd time you are entirely incorrect. I won't quote the TOS again for you, as I have done twice already. The moment you post to reddit, they can do anything they want with the content. It is now theirs. It's also naïve to say reddit was built upon users' content. Yes the content is the most important bit and the reasons users are there today - but that ignores all of the software and infrastructure that made it all possible. There's a reason reddit is what it is today, and it was not an accident.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  For users TOS are entirely irrelevant on the internet anyway. Of course it is their decision to not embrace users in the end.
- nsagent 2y ago
  > The moment you post to reddit, they can do anything they want with the content. It is now theirs. This is patently false. The content is not theirs, users grant Reddit a license to their content. See the TOS [1] you spoke of: > You retain any ownership rights you have in Your Content, but you grant Reddit the following license to use that Content: This isn't just some bit of semantics either. If you can contact the users, you could request a license for the content yourself. So really the only bastion Reddit has is technical measures for preventing scraping, since publicly accessible data is allowed to be scraped in the US due to legal precedent. That is, nothing in the TOS prevents other parties from displaying the data in other formats (as long as they don't use the API). The thing is, all the apps did make use of the API because they were not adversarial with Reddit, as opposed to webapps like libreddit that circumvent the API altogether. [1]: https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement https://redditinc.com/policies/user-agreement