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Ask HN: Who is pretending to be hiring?

337 points by neilk 2y ago

I’m looking for a job and like many people in this situation am finding it unusually difficult. I’ve read rumors that many firms are actually in a hiring freeze, but they keep job reqs open for appearances. Apparently some investors use job postings as a company health metric. From my contacts, I am personally aware of situations where internally-recommended CVs are ignored by HR, and other cases had open job postings and passed people successfully through the interview process, and then the hiring manager still didn’t pull the trigger. I have no way of knowing how widespread this is, but it is happening at some places. Is your company like this? If you have real info and not just suspicions, let’s name some names.

darioatonal4 2y ago
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giantg2 2y ago
I actually had an internal lateral posting frozen... after passing all rounds of interviews. Basically, I was told I was the strongest candidate but they had concerns over questions I raised about context switching and requirements related to my disability. Then they told me they were freezing the posting. Open internal posting over the past year as hovered around .5% of the company headcount. So even internal movement at my company is terrible.
1658 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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Olivia2 2y ago
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hamilton1232 2y ago
Please stay focus, most of these so called hackers here are Basterd, Now i know how good hackers work, they never advertise themselves in such a credulous manner and they are always discrete. I have been ripped off so many times so from experience I know so much on how they work...Eventually my zeal to solve my issue paid off when a friend of mine introduced me to this guy, his professionalism is top class.I am sharing this piece of info for those who genuinely want the service of a Good hacker...contact her Via greyeax[at]gmail Dot com,hhe is fast and reliable...
- solarmist 2y ago
  Dang. This is definitely a SPAM account.
Davereye99 2y ago
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- solarmist 2y ago
  Dang this looks like SPAM. Edit: Nope. Definitely SPAM.
thesepretzels2 2y ago
I'm also on the hunt and over time I learnt which companies I shouldn't applying since a role was not filled in a few months. It does teach me something on the company's culture though.
gwbas1c 2y ago
When I worked at VMware in 2008, I remember interviewing a candidate. Priorities changed, we weren't crazy about the candidate, and they didn't get hired. No one was ever hired for the opening, and ~1 year later the project was canceled. > but they keep job reqs open for appearances People hire for appearances. If you're a manager you need people to manage. It makes you feel important. That job that I had at VMware... The more I think about it, that job was making someone feel important, and feel like they were checking a box. My prior job was about making someone feel important, too. (My boss was promoted to manager so he hired me.) So I wouldn't go and say that a company is pretending to be hiring. It's more that priorities change, or sometimes the bar for a position is high, ect, ect.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago
  >People hire for appearances. If you're a manager you need people to manage. It makes you feel important. This eventually leads to layoffs. At my old company, when someone in a team moved teams or quit, they reflexively hired a replacement or consultant even if it was not needed. Then they had to be laid off due to budget (me included) So yes, managers just want a bigger team to look good. It worked when money was free...
- xyst 2y ago
  There’s a few rumors out there that promotion for managers at Amazon require a minimum head count. Fortune 500 companies are a disaster. It’s all a game of smoke and mirrors. Pump the stock at all costs
  - Ancalagon 2y ago
    rumors? I thought this was common knowledge for most large orgs
- marcus0x62 2y ago
  > If you're a manager you need people to manage. It makes you feel important. When you're a manager, you need a bench of candidates for areas where you think your team will grow, and for people from your team who might leave. When I was a manager, I always had a list of potential hires, but it was a spreadsheet I kept, and when I'd talk to people informally I'd let them know - either I have no possible opening for them now, but I'd like to keep them in mind for the future if they were also interested in working for me or, I'd let them know I'd probably have an opening n months in the future. But, I'd never post job listings just to get a candidate list. Or interview random people just for the hell of it. For one, at most (bigger than tiny startup) companies, there's at least some bureaucracy in getting job listings approved - why would you do that work if you don't need to? Also, why would you want to lead people on who you want on your team? At the line manager level, this theory makes no sense. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it is as stupid for the manager as it is wasteful for the job applicant.
calpaterson 2y ago
Haha, bold thread. I can understand the frustration as probably we all know this monkey business is too common - but I suspect that an open invitation to "name some names" is not probably not going to be a productive and useful as you might hope :)
- dicjsnw 2y ago
  If you don’t call out companies engaging in this anti-worker practice, it will continue as the norm. Norms don’t change without social pressure.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
Madmallard 2y ago
My ultra qualified friend who is a lead at a fortune 500 company has only had 2 leads in 11 despite being probably in the top 3 best available candidates for all 11 applications. So yeah, I don't think many tech companies are actually hiring.
- JSDevOps 2y ago
  I’d be hasten to agree.
gip 2y ago
It is anecdotical, but I'm consulting with a startup in the Bay Area. We have 9 job openings listed on the website (and for some reason only 4 on LinkedIn). But in reality one position (senior dev) is really open, and the bar is sky high. By that I mean that the founders would hire the right person. But the other 8 positions are just there for signaling and nobody looks at the applications we get (and for one of these positions we got 1k+ applications last time I checked). For when I'm asked, the CEO told me to say that we are prioritizing finding the senior dev first (and the position has been open for 6 months). I think the founders feel that it is the right posture to signal that the company is growing (external messaging) and that we are doing well (internal messaging).
- taurath 2y ago
  It should be illegal. Given how many regulations there are around hiring, there should also be some around job postings. Making people waste a bunch of time updating their resume and writing cover letters for a company thats not actually looking to fill a role is awful. Its creating shitty dynamics for both job seekers and job posters - seekers have to spreadfire apply to as many places as possible with quantity over any quality, get their inboxes obliterated with rejections that make very little sense. Job posters get 1000 applicants for every position because there's barely any reason to read the description anymore. Not to mention all the economic reporting that is completely messed up by this. Job openings are something that is tracked, and policy can't adapt if literally every company is saying they're hiring like gangbusters but nobody can get a job.
  - webninja 2y ago
    It hurts future income tax dollars so it should be at the top of the priority list for all governments. Even if they don’t care about or prioritize their citizens, they usually at least care about receiving tax dollars and reducing fraud.
  - RangerScience 2y ago
    Heh :) Enforcement would potentially look a lot like unemployment, but in reverse: you have to show you’ve been interviewing people, just like unemployment requires you to show you’ve been looking
INTPenis 2y ago
Funny you should say that because I've been suspecting the same thing here in Sweden.
jedberg 2y ago
VCs are absolutely using job listings as a health metric, and it is leading to companies listing a bunch of jobs. They aren't exactly fake jobs -- they will hire someone if some unicorn walks in. But they are nice to have jobs, not necessary jobs. Also some companies keep up generic listings like "Senior engineer" not because they are hiring but because they would be willing to make an opportunistic hire for the right person, and want to collect the names of interested people for when they are hiring.
- jszymborski 2y ago
  I'm out of my depth here, but doesn't this feel a bit short-sighted on the part of start-ups? If talented folks are applying to ghost jobs and never hearing back, aren't they less likely to apply later when real vacancies open? I know it's an employers market atm since firms don't have the cash flow to scale, but interest rates are coming down and it won't always be this way. Again, I'm out of my depth, recruiting is not my expertise, etc...
  - jedberg 2y ago
    Well, it's a game theory thing. Probably a few people will ignore their outreach after they remember the company never got back to them. But in most cases they will probably assume the application was just lost. Or if it's a hot startup that just got a round of funding and has an interesting problem, they won't care. On balance it probably helps more than hurts.
  - CryptoBanker 2y ago
    Once they've applied once their resumes are on file. These companies can always reach out to a candidate at a later date
    - gwbas1c 2y ago
      That's somewhat short-sighted, because many good candidates aren't on the market long.
  - 5thaccount 2y ago
gcr 2y ago
It’s rough out there, folks. Anecdote: a while back, I did an internship at a YC “darling” company that you’ve definitely heard of. They apparently liked me so much that a couple years ago, the lead of intern recruiting emailed me encouraging me to re-apply if I was ever on the job market. Well it’s fall 2024, and they automatically rejected my resume without review. Apparently not even internships are good enough as a hiring signal anymore.
- deleted 2y ago
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- nottorp 2y ago
  > they automatically rejected my resume without review They switched to "AI" for efficiency :)
- wavemode 2y ago
  In the past I was auto-rejected for a position within my own company, that the hiring manager literally told me to apply for. HR and hiring managers aren't the same people, and aren't always operating with the same set of criteria. I was directed to re-apply and answer some of the questions differently (and not quite truthfully...) just to get past the screening system. I would encourage you to reach back out to intern recruiting and see what's up.
  - hyperG 2y ago
    At my previous company, I was rejected by HR for a job the hiring manager not only told me to apply for but hired me immediately after the interview for. Reach out for sure. Do anything humanly possible to avoid going through HR.
  - jrs235 2y ago
    Thanks for sharing. The following is not me judging you for misleading answers it's me judging the other half on why there's so much more BS floating around everywhere. Honestly and humility is punished while deceitfulness and overconfidence is rewarded. Everyone, not just the emperor, will be walking around in the finest of all robes...
golly_ned 2y ago
My last company, OctoAI, would leave postings up even through layoffs. They'd go unfulfilled; exceptional candidates would still join the company on occasion, but not through the front door.
eitally 2y ago
I work in cloud consulting and we definitely do not act like this. We currently maintain almost 0 bench for one of the hyperscalers and recruiting is proving to be very difficult for senior technical consultants (both infra & data domains). I have two roles listed via LinkedIn right now and I can't tell you how many low quality applications I've received. Lots of people are using the "easy apply" to try their luck, even if they're not remotely qualified. This is sort of the flip side of what others have described about having a post listed just in case a unicorn walks in. I don't need unicorns. I just need solid cloud consultants with a few years of client facing experience.
- JSDevOps 2y ago
  Where are you at?
- lmaoguy 2y ago
  I’m interested
  - eitally 2y ago
    send me a note. email is in profile.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      not seeing an email there. could you share your requirements? either here, or on whoishiring, or you could email me. my email is in the profile ;-)
water-data-dude 2y ago
The title made me think you were looking for folks to make up a company and pretend they’re hiring folks :( Well, if anyone wants to pretend to apply to my imaginary tech startup, we have an exciting product that combines intrusive cameras all over the customer’s house with cutting edge AI to blast a bloodcurdling scream through their smart speakers whenever they bite into a piece of fruit.
0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
The tiny German startup I worked at last year was posting 4 dev positions. After some financial problems hit they announced (internally but in an official manner) that they were not going to hire anybody. Couple weeks later I pointed out to the person responsible for hiring that the postings were still up. They explicitly responded that they will keep them up. I didn't get an actual reason but I think it was for job market "research" and to keep a steady stream of applicants to threaten existing employees with replacement.
edferda 2y ago
Honest question, not trying to be confrontational, just curious every time I see these kind of posts/anecdotes. It seems to me that finding a job in tech is easier than finding a job in any other professional field (e.g. chemical engineering). I am an electrical engineer myself and it was easier to get a job that paid better doing programming than in EE. Specially for the effort you have to put in. How is it that HN complains so much about the whole process? Are people only applying to big tech companies or hot startups hoping to get the compensation they have been getting for the past n years? There must be plenty of tech jobs in non tech industries doing normal, “boring” work like dba or maintaining legacy systems. I mean, those kind of jobs still pay enough to live a normal, decent life. They might not be exciting but work is work. Although that is my take, coming from a 3rd world country and all. Or am I just delusional and the “boring” jobs(that pay less but still enough) are nonexistent? I am not from the US so I really don’t know how the market looks outside of the FAAANG/startup bubble. Heck, last time I checked even the US government needed tech folks. It feels that there are jobs out there but the jobs don’t match people’s expectation. But I could be really wrong.
- solarmist 2y ago
  There are more jobs, but also a lot more weird stuff is thrown in. Overall, the industry treats it like hiring a single bad engineer will singlehandedly and inevitably sink your entire company. And the "boring" jobs copy their recruiting practices from the FAANG companies. So you have a 5 round interview that could ghost you any time. The current problem is that huge numbers of companies are in a hiring freeze, but still posting jobs on job boards, so you have to submit countless resumes to get a human to contact you. So yes, there are a lot more jobs available, but every step seems designed to discourage and frustrate job seekers.
- mekoka 2y ago
  Not trying to be confrontational either in answering your question. Just sharing an anecdote, since I have some experience working in a company that for a time, employed mostly EE as software engineers. I'll call this company Y (since the X alias is now prone to create confusion). Y is entrenched in the business of producing monitoring tools for electrical systems (power systems, controllers, rt simulation, etc). Beyond very basic drivers and software to interface with their devices, the actual useful apps to work with them were always written by partner companies that were in the software business. One day, Y found itself having to compete with a former partner (a software company) that had acquired one of Y's direct competitors (power systems, controllers, simulation, etc). Y then thought it was time they became less reliant on external software for their products and it made sense that they, too, entered the software business. The obvious next step was to reverse engineer and replicate some of the existing apps that were interfacing with their systems. Y first tried to hire some SE for the job. But faced with the challenge of paying SE salaries, it was reasoned that since Y's existing EE have the academic prerequisite to code, they can probably do the job. A few meetings later, company management and the various EE managers all agreed that code is obviously code. Network, web, desktop, you name it, they can build. They can do it all. Three years of technical debt later, they tried hiring actual SE who, upon interacting with the code, just kept leaving, for some reason. By the fourth year, those projects were scrapped and new ones started from scratch, with actual SE as project leaders and a few handpicked former-EE-turned-software-devs from the old teams. All this to say that although EE can technically write code, building software, if done right, is a lot more than about simply spewing logic with a programming language. I'm not saying that an EE can't also become a qualified software dev, but once that happens, they'll want to be paid a software dev salary.
cruze 2y ago
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dserban 2y ago
> Is your company like this? If you have real info and not just suspicions, let’s name some names. A certain company (the name starts with "A") is widely known for doing this, you might guess which company I refer to by deep-diving into my comments history. It looks exactly like in this YT short: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V5VAN6ldS9o https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V5VAN6ldS9o
Brian_K_White 2y ago
My other favorite is sometimes there are posts here where the company is apparently looking to hire every single position required to make a company. Well, in that case sure, I too am a multinational firm servicing the ___ industry just looking to fill a few roles: senior back end engineer, senior front end engineer, senior sales manager, senior accountant, founding product concept... that's all.
diego_moita 2y ago
We, job seekers, should react against it. We should post their names here. There are a lot of posts like that on HN's Who's Hiring. One of the most obvious examples is MixRank [0]. On the last jobs thread, they reposted [1] the same job advertisement they've been bot-posting for almost 2 years. It is identical. And HN doesn't even allow us to flag/report this abuse. Other companies that do the same: Cargado, Aha!,... HN's "Who's Hiring" is turning into a trap. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41129813#41131139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41129813#41131139 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41709301 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41709301
- cdfuller 2y ago
  In the MixRank posting, did you see this section? It looks like they added it after receiving similar criticism. > We're hiring continuously for the positions below— they aren't singular positions that will close once filled. Our philosophy on hiring is that the candidate is more important than the position. For each new member of the team, we design a custom role and responsibilities that are specialized to their interests. Other companies will come up with a long list of specific requirements for a position with the expectation that you'll exactly replace someone from the team, or that you'll be the perfect tetris piece that satisfies the job requirements decided by a committee. MixRank is more pragmatic: we'll first get excited about having a unique individual on the team, then we'll figure out the best way to accommodate their specific talents.
neilv 2y ago
I've heard startup founders pretending to hire, like it's a common best-practice. Personally, I don't think it's very honest, and I'm going to wonder what other honesty they have flexibility about. I wonder whether any of the third-party job-posting sites has figured out ways to say you're not much hiring -- or only hiring/promoting internally, or only filling a funnel for possible future openings, or only hiring if a rare unicorn comes along -- without that looking negative to people who only want simpleton metrics. Maybe the cooling of "growth" theatre startups will make it OK to sound like you're not "growing" right now.
- 0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
  When it happened at my last job it was definitely foreshadowing other malevolent behavior.
- alx_the_new_guy 2y ago
  The most obvious approach I can think of would be some sort of post-application questionnare and comparing that to the companie's job posting, sort of, stats. Say, the company has a lot of job postings, but the all the applicants say they're auto-rejected. That's a decently clear indicator. Also, if you link your linkedin/stackoverflow/github or something, there could be a more or less automatic way of evaluating you as a candidate in general and your fit for this/similar position, which could be fed back into the post-interview questionnare processing. Obviously, not that good a way to evaluate candidate fitness, but a way nonetheless. Rings privacy alarm bells, but oh well. Someone could build a decentralized version of it which would work via a browser extension. And, actually, 3rd party hiring companies have a way better relationship with the companies hiring than with the candidates, so I very clearly can see this mechanism weilded against us.
iknownthing 2y ago
About a year or so ago I interviewed with Sourcegraph for about 6 months then they ghosted me and the role I was up for disappeared. Pretty sure no one got hired for it.
- MeetingsBrowser 2y ago
  I saw source graph posted on the "Who's Hiring" thread today and looked at some of the postings. They are pretty open about their leveling and pay structure. Although the job listing says they pay "above average", the pay for a Software Engineering role with 5-8 years experience can pay as low as $63k
  - linotype 2y ago
    That’s less than what I made in nominal terms (USD) when I graduated in 2009.
  - iknownthing 2y ago
    I wish they were open about their ghosting.
GenerWork 2y ago
I'm a product designer. The UX market is seemingly frozen right now. There's a bunch of influencers on LinkedIn who post new jobs and use this as evidence that the industry is turning the corner, but at the same time I keep seeing more and more looking for work badges, and many seniors I know who are quite good at their craft are simply unable to get interviews. I myself am looking for a new job and jobs hardly send out rejection emails anymore, which is new to me.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
This entire thread triggers the "I hate this' meme in me so hard.
Squeeeez 2y ago
What kind of punishment does HR get if they reject good candidates? I had a discussion with an HR person the other day, she was claiming things like "oh we would just paste their CV into chatgpt and ask whether we should hire them", "his belt didn't match his shoes so we blacklisted him", "he used forbidden words like 'but', not a good match". Maybe it was just an exception, but I have a feeling like it would be pretty common. Between that and black magic CV filtering software, they have all the excuses. Nothing human about anything in that process anymore.
- Rastonbury 2y ago
  Their KPIs and quotas (pass rate of candidates passing HM stage, time to hire) and hiring manager busting their balls. Depends on the company though and again it's 99 rejects and 1 hire, as a manager I can't be reading CVs everyday and interviewing everyone and I've been on the candidate side to
pabs3 2y ago
Hmm, "they keep job reqs open for appearances" sounds like fraud?
Buttons840 2y ago
This thread reminds me. I once called out a Who's Hiring post on HN. I publically replied and commented that I was a good fit and had applied, but never heard anything in return. A short time later HN got more strict about "no discussion" in the Who's Hiring post. What a shame.
sentrysapper 2y ago
I'm not affiliated with them but ghostjobs.io is doing awesome work tracking companies that do this. For the job seekers on HN, avoid companies that engage in this behavior.
- TheCaptain67 2y ago
  Thanks for posting this site. I added the 10 or so companies where I “applied” and then never heard anything back / never processed the application in Workday.
lmaoguy 2y ago
Intel
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
The appropriate response is to reject working for unethical corporations, unionize, and/or form your own company to keep more of the value of your effort.
- em-bee 2y ago
  i have my own company. finding clients is no different than finding jobs.
aryehof 2y ago
Pretending to be hiring has been going on for years. “We are hiring” == “we are always open to consider a special James Bond special one-in-a-thousand special developer”
sireat 2y ago
It might be some small comfort that this "fake hiring" situation has always been around and is not limited to US and dev positions. Anecdotally, my wife applied to a large European cross-country multi-billion project as an architect. She had the perfect mix of government and private experience in relevant technologies or so we thought. There was no response. The position remained open for a half year more along with dozens more. Why would someone waste money advertising (even in print) on these positions, if no interviews were conducted? Apparently all that happened is that high level management hired HR firm to place advertisements and collect candidates for lower level positions that would actually do the work. Presumably this was done in good faith in that project would be moving forward. Now two years later the project has 4X ballooned in cost to 25 billion. Those local positions are still not filled.
austin-cheney 2y ago
A couple of places have reached out to me to interview for their senior full stack position in the past few weeks including Capital One. I am currently employed though and no longer willing to do corporate web work. My experience in looking for work last year suggests that corporate job portals were all ignored. I had employees I knew at Walmart and Fidelity confirm this to me and it was double confirmed by various third party recruiters who struggled to fill positions they knew actually did exist. Most of these openings were legally required in conformance with EEO laws but just weren’t real, at least to the public.
myapp 2y ago
Wouldn't leaving job reqs open be an indicator of not being able to attract talent?
Delphiza 2y ago
This has always been the case in all industries. The applications that you get, by volume or type, may change depending on people looking for work. It is not restricted to tech either. If you are in the "Laser" industry and post a job looking for a _shark wrangler_, it is an indication that you are a good company to call if one is looking for "sharks with laser beams attached to their heads". My wife was looking for a job earlier this year (non tech), and it was interesting to see the grind from the outside. It seems that we are at the point where job seeker AIs and job poster AIs are just going to have to fight it out. There is no way to tell if a job is real or if you are going to get ghosted. As a candidate you don't have the time to research and write cover letters. It is a numbers game and if you are going to get ignored hundreds of times, you need to send out hundreds of applications, so you have to spam job postings. Job postings get lots of spam, so it is difficult to rise to the top of the pile. Each party needs a better AI than their competitors. It used to be a better CV, or a better job posting, but those days are long-gone.
93po 2y ago
Throughout 2022, before all the crap job market now, my employer 100% had a couple job postings (it was small so there was only like 4 total) that they had zero desire to fill, even if a great candidate came along. I think mostly in a "nice to have contacts in case we do need someone again" or they find someone who's really qualified and really really inexpensive. For product management roles, if it matters.
martabarus1 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
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leebarker528 2y ago
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slake 2y ago
One social media agency mentioned that the best way to build Linkedin followers is to have multiple job posts open even if your'e not hiring. The applicants follow you and you have healthy follower growth. Super-dodgy in my opinion.
OkGoDoIt 2y ago
My wife works for a large tech company in San Francisco. There’s someone on her team that they are sponsoring an H1B visa for, and apparently one of the requirements for that is that they need to try to fill the position with a citizen/resident if possible. So they had an officially-open position with HR and she has personally interviewed candidates that legitimately thought they might get the job but she had to find reasons to reject them so the company could say “we tried to find someone local to hire but we were unable to find someone good enough, please approve the H1B”. This was during the pandemic work-from-home so I personally overheard these interviews. It’s amazing to me that this actually happens and isn’t just some crazy conspiracy theory. I have no idea how widespread it is but this is a major company, not some random sketchy startup.

gwbas1c 2y ago
> just that it is as stupid for the manager as it is wasteful for the job applicant. You're clearly a good manager. (And I suspect I would enjoy working for you.) Don't underestimate the amount of lousy managers out there. Many of them don't know they're lousy, or are just trying to do what's right without realizing that they aren't doing what's right.
lovich 2y ago
Your company still lets line level managers open reqs or decide who gets to join the company? Opening job reqs has been director+ at every place I’ve worked. The most say I get is to yay or nay based on the one round I get to interview candidates on, but the interviewers in every other round have an equal say. My point being is that you are correct that for line managers it makes no sense to have fake job postings but at a lot of companies the line managers have zero say in whether it happens or not
- marcus0x62 2y ago
  > I’ve worked. The most say I get is to yay or nay based on the one round I get to interview candidates on, but the interviewers in every other round have an equal say. You're conflating two completely different things here (posting job listings and who decides on which candidate to hire) WRT to hiring, in my experience, the hiring manager for an IC position was always first among equals in making the final candidate selection. Other people, based on their position in the company, might get to say no, but I was the only person who got to say yes. This was slightly different for hiring non-ICs at the company I worked for - in that case, the functional leader had to agree with the hiring manager, but it was still the hiring manager who ultimately decided whether or not to advance their candidate to the final round with the functional leader. As for posting job reqs, it ultimately required much higher than director-level approval to post any job req. It typically required functional leader approval and HR/finance approval to get done. Generally, I and other managers would make the case for why we needed additional headcount to our managers (usually directly to our director and our VP) and the VPs would make the case to our SVP as to why their particular team should get the headcount they wanted. Then, the VPs would figure out where they wanted to allocate their headcount, then the directors would do the same, then the managers would figure out (if they didn't get all of the headcount they wanted) which positions they wanted to fill, then the whole process would go in reverse where we would make the case to our directors why we wanted to fill x position instead of y position, and so on and so forth. > but at a lot of companies the line managers have zero say in whether it happens or not I don't doubt that. But, it is a sign of an unhealthy leadership culture and an unhealthy relationship between managers and their directors.
  - lovich 2y ago
    I wasn’t conflating the two things, I was mentioning that the power to say yay/nay was the closest I ever got to opening a job req To be entirely honest reading through your process, you don’t have the power to open job req either. That’s the exact same way it would go at my jobs. You are not given a budget to execute with, you need to ask a multi chain group for them to decide if a req is opened.

Rastonbury 2y ago

Interesting take, did you feel like your work never helped the company or only helped marginally? Or was it a role you could purely coast in

gwbas1c 2y ago
> did you feel like your work never helped the company or only helped marginally? The product was cancelled before it shipped. (Basically, the market window ended and the product was my first career example of architecture astronauts and the consequences.) But, to make it interesting: The HR guy who hired me bumped up my rank to get me a pay increase. They didn't tell me that I was the most experienced engineer on the team, nor did I have the leverage to push back on some serious architectural mistakes. 1 year in, I realized the project was an exercise of "architecture astronauts," although I didn't know the word at the time. > Or was it a role you could purely coast in I could have done that. I consider that generally unethical. I did coast a few days before I gave notice; I gave notice the day before a scheduled vacation, and then came in one day after the vacation to meet with HR. To make a long story short: I decided to quit a few days before the Employee Stock Purchase Plan grant date, and I was afraid if I gave notice, I'd loose the stock. To put things in context, my manager wanted to walk me out the door as soon as I gave notice, and I had to tell him that would make him look bad.
- gwbas1c 2y ago
  I just wanted to add to my comment about coasting, which I generally consider unethical. When my project at VMware ended, I was assigned to a team that I really, really didn't like. I was advised to find a new project, which I did: The rewrite of the VSphere UI in Flex. At the time, it was a 1-person exploratory project. I could have been #2 in that project. Well, we all knew where Flex went. At the time, I was eager to do work in HTML & CSS. I was planning quitting to start a startup in a few months, too. I spent a few days trying to get a Flex development environment running, and decided that it just wasn't "worth it" to spend any time with Flex, or the VSphere UI rewrite. If it had been HTML & Javascript, I would have stayed, at least for a few months longer, or possibly even longer, because the guy who was starting the project was kinda cool. Instead, when I decided it was time to leave VMware, I realized that I only had ~2 days before the employee stock purchase plan grant. This was quite lucrative, so I costed for 1-2 days, (also to give me a chance to change my mind,) and gave my notice.

aguaviva 2y ago

It should be illegal. Indeed. And handsome whistleblower bonuses (i.e. enough to retire on) should be paid to individuals who are in a position to report the company principals to appropriate authorities (with easily obtainable evidence of course), so that they can be dealt with accordingly. Instead of just casually mentioning to others at the water cooler that this is what their client/employer was doing, as if it were just one of those things.

paulcole 2y ago
> handsome whistleblower bonuses (i.e. enough to retire on) should be paid to individuals Is this money coming from the government or the company? Because I’m guessing the startup using fake job postings to signal growth probably doesn’t have enough runway to cover the handsome retirement of a 30-year old.
- mway 2y ago
  Sounds like a "them problem". If it weren't punitive, it wouldn't be a deterrent.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    I mean it’s not a them problem if they just can’t afford to pay it. What are you going to do, rat on your employer to get money from them they know they can’t pay so they just go out of business and you lose your job?
    - mway 2y ago
      I mean, yeah. It's still a them problem, because they can choose to engage or not engage in those practices while knowing the consequences. What are you going to do, never penalize companies when it might hurt their bottom line? Just because they can't pay it doesn't mean there shouldn't be repercussions. That would be like saying that a person can't be fined because they don't have the money. AFAIK the judicial system will happily levy costs on you that you can't afford, and it is 100% a "you problem".
  - drstewart 2y ago
    >If it weren't punitive, it wouldn't be a deterrent. This is why I don't understand people who are against the death penalty and punishing mandatory minimum sentences. As you correctly point out, harsh retribution is a good deterrent.
    - majewsky 2y ago
      Because the actions that lead to death penalties are usually committed without a calm and collected risk-benefit analysis, whereas economic decisions of a corporation absolutely are.
      - thunky 2y ago
        > the actions that lead to death penalties are usually committed without a calm and collected risk-benefit analysis Really? I thought death penalty is typically reserved for premeditated acts where the criminal did actually think it through.
        paulcole 2y ago
        > where the criminal did actually think it through Until we can get into the criminal's brain we can't know the extent to which they thought it through. We're just basically saying, "Anybody would know that they shouldn't kill somebody and it seems like they probably thought about killing this person before they did it." I doubt there's going to be a stat that satisfies you here, but this one is interesting: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/murder-rates/murder-rate-of-death-penalty-states-compared-to-non-death-penalty-states https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/murder-rates... I haven't ever seen non-anecdotal evidence (flimsy or otherwise) that makes me think the death penalty acts as a deterrent.
        thunky 2y ago
        > Until we can get into the criminal's brain we can't know the extent to which they thought it through. Sure we can, based on their actions. For example, we know that the guy that killed 60 people in Vegas planned it out ahead of time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting#Preparation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting#Prepar.... I'm not the one saying that the penalty works as a deterrent. It probably didn't in this case since the guy killed himself. Although he may have preferred death to a life in prison.
  - arp242 2y ago
    Just prosecute individuals making these kind of decisions. Currently you can get away with almost all white-collar crime as he company picks up the bill. Only the most outrageous of the outrageous ever ends up being prosecuted, and even that doesn't always happen. Much of this tomfoolery will quickly end if you actually start holding people accountable. Giving some corporation a fine is not that.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Presumably the government will backstop it by a certain amount X, to be increased to Y > X if such funds can be clawed back from the principals / company. Not equivalent to the most attractive exit they hope to make (if they stayed with the company and if it paid out), of course -- but enough to make it worth their trouble, to hedge the diminished employment prospects that will be incurred as a price for sticking their neck out, and to convince these companies that they're running a significant risk in pulling shenanigans like this.

edanm 2y ago

> It should be illegal. Not everything we don't like should be illegal. This sounds like the kind of thing that is incredibly unenforceable anyway. How do you differentiate between "we're not actually hiring" and "we simply have a very high bar"? How do you do it in a way that doesn't impact the economy too much (like forcing employers to do stupid things like auto-write everyone back and waste even more of their time in order to appear to actually be hiring)?

polski-g 2y ago
They want to turn the US into the EU: a dying, poor, over-regulated museum of decline.
skeaker 2y ago
Easy, you offer a hotline where people can report it when they see it and then sue/fine the company for defrauding their investors by faking growth. If the case is legitimate, you reward the person that called in to the hotline with a bounty. Everybody wins except the fraudulent company, as it should be.
- edanm 2y ago
  So now every company does a technical screen that weeds out a large percentage of people, then randomly chooses to waste some more people's time by dragging them through an interview. Everyone wastes more time but they can say they interviewed a lot of people. I'm not saying this behavior isn't bad, to the extent that it actually really exists. I'm just not sure making it illegal is the right move. Why not let the market take care of it? You can usually see if a company is growing or not. If this becomes such a common phenomenon that that's a problem, you can usually explicitly ask, or there will be industry sources that can tell you if a company is growing or not.
  - skeaker 2y ago
    As if people's time isn't already wasted by fake job listings? The market isn't actually very good at fixing issues like these, and in fact caused the issue in this case (defrauding investors makes number go up which makes market happy but people sad), which is why you would regulate it.
consteval 2y ago
> Not everything we don't like should be illegal From a "fraud" angle I could argue that it should still be illegal. You're signaling to your investors that you're growing but you're really not. Fake numbers are a real thing. 9 openings and only 1 real opening? So you're inflating your employment growth by a factor of 9? How is this different than Wells Fargo opening 9 phony, automatic accounts per customer to inflate their growth?
amerkhalid 2y ago
If company has 10 positions open for X months but their headcount is still same, then you can argue these are fake postings. We have big enough population that high bar, unless unrealistic, should not be problem.