5 ms·

Ironically, we just hit an entirely different "sand catastrophe" - https://mastodon.social/@mimsical/113232531800424706 https://mastodon.social/@mimsical/113232

by eichin 2y ago

Ironically, we just hit an entirely different "sand catastrophe" - https://mastodon.social/@mimsical/113232531800424706 https://mastodon.social/@mimsical/113232531800424706 > the crucibles used to create ingots of silicon which become microchips are made from an ultra-pure quartz sand -- and 70% of the world's supply comes from just one place in North Carolina [Spruce Pine]

voxadam 2y ago
Essential node in global semiconductor supply chain hit by Hurricane Helene | 196 points | 50 comments | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701862
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
diggan 2y ago
> and 70% of the world's supply comes from just one place in North Carolina A quick search seems to say there are more places available for getting that than North Carolina. Is it possible that this specific mine just happens to be the cheapest available right now, but in case they for some reason disappear, there are alternatives everyone would switch to? Or is the situation that if that mine disappears, there is no other alternatives at all?
- esmIII 2y ago
  Could not even be the cheapest, Just the refinement process was developed for this particular sand. A different sand might have different impurities and need different processes to handle.
  - cyanydeez 2y ago
    Almost all our modern tech has extremely long tails measured in decades. It's basic economics to exploit one source for as long as possible before feasibility changes, but that's a hard argument to make for anyone, even the most experienced personnel because it's all so site specific.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    If the particular impurities of this source can be chelated out with safer or cheaper chemicals, maybe in fewer steps, then the cost goes down. Of course jurisdictions with poor worker conditions can just use the less safe chemicals and externalize the human toll instead of using more complex safety procedures.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ajross 2y ago
  Yeah, this is being overblown. It may very well be that there will be a short term constriction as competitors ramp, but to argue that this is some kind of fundamental bottleneck in semiconductor production is ridiculous. It's quartz: literally the single most common crystal on the surface of the planet. Now, sure, I'm sure this particular mine had great stuff, but it's not like it's hard to find. No, surely what we have here is a single source provider precisely because the material is so cheap to mine (and therefore unprofitable to try to compete with from scratch).
  - coliveira 2y ago
    You're right, but I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a bottleneck at least for a few months, generating a lot of headaches for some companies.
- tomrod 2y ago
  Availability, production scale, and knowledge base. I think things will probably pan out okay, maybe a rough month or two as roads (even if rough cut new logging roads), utilities, and prioritized community services get fixed up. Synthetic option is available, apparently, just a bit costly.
- moomin 2y ago
  >> and 70% of the world's supply comes from just one place in North Carolina > A quick search seems to say there are more places available for getting that than North Carolina. I mean, I deduced it straight from “70%”.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    I'm pretty sure the implied argument is that, while this source currently supplies 70% of the total, we aren't actually dependent on it - i.e. production could be scaled up elsewhere.
ipsod 2y ago
Oh, cool. One of the most common glass batches (raw materials melted to make glass) used by artists is "Spruce Pine Batch".
- hinkley 2y ago
  Wonder if it’s the same stuff or if glass people get a different bin.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    The quartz is crushed and sorted for purity so yes it'd be a different bin than the stuff going to make fused quartz for semiconductors.
mp05 2y ago
I'm not sure that's technically irony but rather an interesting coincidence.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hangonhn 2y ago
The majority of the earth's crust is believed to be made of silicon dioxide. I don't know how much I would believe that we would have a scarcity. It may all come from one source simply because of history.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
I wrote this comment on an article that was on HN about 6 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39818778 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39818778 Sadly, given the insane amount of devastation in western NC, I'll get a chance to test my hypothesis. That is, despite Spruce Pine going offline, the overall impact to the global semiconductor industry will be relatively unnoticeable.
- chithanh 2y ago
  Could also go the other way. Some of you may be old enough to remember the 1993 fire in the Sumitomo epoxy resin factory. Following that, DRAM chips became drastically more expensive (prices increased from $30 to $80 per megabyte) for much longer than the supply disruptions lasted, and interestingly also much longer than other ICs which saw only moderate price increases.
mkonecny 2y ago
A coincidence is not ironic
throwup238 2y ago
Spruce Pine doesn't use sand, they mine large quartz crystals out of pegmatites.

by eichin 2y ago

voxadam 2y ago

Essential node in global semiconductor supply chain hit by Hurricane Helene | 196 points | 50 comments | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701862 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41701862

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

diggan 2y ago

> and 70% of the world's supply comes from just one place in North Carolina A quick search seems to say there are more places available for getting that than North Carolina. Is it possible that this specific mine just happens to be the cheapest available right now, but in case they for some reason disappear, there are alternatives everyone would switch to? Or is the situation that if that mine disappears, there is no other alternatives at all?

esmIII 2y ago
Could not even be the cheapest, Just the refinement process was developed for this particular sand. A different sand might have different impurities and need different processes to handle.
- cyanydeez 2y ago
  Almost all our modern tech has extremely long tails measured in decades. It's basic economics to exploit one source for as long as possible before feasibility changes, but that's a hard argument to make for anyone, even the most experienced personnel because it's all so site specific.
- hinkley 2y ago
  If the particular impurities of this source can be chelated out with safer or cheaper chemicals, maybe in fewer steps, then the cost goes down. Of course jurisdictions with poor worker conditions can just use the less safe chemicals and externalize the human toll instead of using more complex safety procedures.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ajross 2y ago
Yeah, this is being overblown. It may very well be that there will be a short term constriction as competitors ramp, but to argue that this is some kind of fundamental bottleneck in semiconductor production is ridiculous. It's quartz: literally the single most common crystal on the surface of the planet. Now, sure, I'm sure this particular mine had great stuff, but it's not like it's hard to find. No, surely what we have here is a single source provider precisely because the material is so cheap to mine (and therefore unprofitable to try to compete with from scratch).
- coliveira 2y ago
  You're right, but I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a bottleneck at least for a few months, generating a lot of headaches for some companies.
tomrod 2y ago
Availability, production scale, and knowledge base. I think things will probably pan out okay, maybe a rough month or two as roads (even if rough cut new logging roads), utilities, and prioritized community services get fixed up. Synthetic option is available, apparently, just a bit costly.
moomin 2y ago
>> and 70% of the world's supply comes from just one place in North Carolina > A quick search seems to say there are more places available for getting that than North Carolina. I mean, I deduced it straight from “70%”.
- zahlman 2y ago
  I'm pretty sure the implied argument is that, while this source currently supplies 70% of the total, we aren't actually dependent on it - i.e. production could be scaled up elsewhere.

ipsod 2y ago

Oh, cool. One of the most common glass batches (raw materials melted to make glass) used by artists is "Spruce Pine Batch".

hinkley 2y ago
Wonder if it’s the same stuff or if glass people get a different bin.
- throwup238 2y ago
  The quartz is crushed and sorted for purity so yes it'd be a different bin than the stuff going to make fused quartz for semiconductors.

mp05 2y ago

I'm not sure that's technically irony but rather an interesting coincidence.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hangonhn 2y ago

The majority of the earth's crust is believed to be made of silicon dioxide. I don't know how much I would believe that we would have a scarcity. It may all come from one source simply because of history.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

I wrote this comment on an article that was on HN about 6 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39818778 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39818778 Sadly, given the insane amount of devastation in western NC, I'll get a chance to test my hypothesis. That is, despite Spruce Pine going offline, the overall impact to the global semiconductor industry will be relatively unnoticeable.

chithanh 2y ago
Could also go the other way. Some of you may be old enough to remember the 1993 fire in the Sumitomo epoxy resin factory. Following that, DRAM chips became drastically more expensive (prices increased from $30 to $80 per megabyte) for much longer than the supply disruptions lasted, and interestingly also much longer than other ICs which saw only moderate price increases.

mkonecny 2y ago

A coincidence is not ironic

throwup238 2y ago

Spruce Pine doesn't use sand, they mine large quartz crystals out of pegmatites.