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You say Ferrari Red is described in terms of ‘specific values’, but ultimately it’s still just a description. Who defines what the values mean? I actually don’

You say Ferrari Red is described in terms of ‘specific values’, but ultimately it’s still just a description. Who defines what the values mean? I actually don’t know. Does each set of values (in whatever colour system you’re talking about) correspond to a list of quantities of specific physical dyes?

eichin 2y ago
I went to dig into this a bit (since the obvious way to find out what is trademarked is to read the filing) but the euro trademark viewer fails to load for me in the US; a bit more digging suggests that not only is it not trademarked, but for a bunch of time they were driving Marlboro Red cars instead anyway, as part of a branding deal. So, anyone have leads on any actual evidence here?
sandworm101 2y ago
>> correspond to a list of quantities of specific physical dyes? No. A trademark is not a recipe. What matters is the actual look. As for values, "Ferrari Red" is has defined RGB values according to colorhexa (RGB: (239, 26, 45), CMYK: (0, 89, 81, 6).0) and I am sure is outlined in any contract involving Ferrari sponsorship. No doubt Coke also has very specific values for its version of "red".
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  But if it’s specified in terms of CMYK, that is a list of quantities of specific dyes, isn’t it?
  - kube-system 2y ago
    CMYK is a representation ratios of unspecific dyes, on an unknown medium.
    - xanderlewis 2y ago
      Ah — true. I thought the dyes used for each colour would be fairly standard, though.
      - sandworm101 2y ago
        Dyes are not like light. Mix any three, regardless of ratio, and you basically always get brown. That's why paint stores carry so many colors.
      - kube-system 2y ago
        They're close, if we're just talking about printer ink. But if you're coloring some other item, you might be using entirely different materials.
mystified5016 2y ago
> Does each set of values (in whatever colour system you’re talking about) correspond to a list of quantities of specific physical dyes? Yes. Pantone colors (an industry standard) are defined as a ratio of Pantone colorants. Those colorants then have specific formulations depending on the type of paint they go in. No matter what though, they're formulated such that the colors reproduce exactly every time (insofar as chemistry and physics allows). This is the same general process that most (all) standards use AFAIK. But at the crux of it, we can measure color very precisely. A specific color correlates to a specific distribution of light wavelengths. Spectrometers are not particularly expensive these days. Believe me, there has been a ton of effort put into this question. Color accuracy is a whole industry that most people have never heard of.
- kube-system 2y ago
  Pantone is a way to standardize on colors. But that level of precision isn't really necessary for a trademark case. The courts care about whether or not a consumer is confused by the color, and that level of specificity is way more coarse than the details Pantone is concerned about. If you rip off Coke and change the color to the next closest Pantone color, it will make zero difference in your court case.
geor9e 2y ago
It's difficult, that's why Pantone charges thousands of dollars. You know those chameleon car paints that change color based on sunlight or angle? Turns out everything is like that somewhat. You can have two parts match perfectly under a fluorescent light and then look like totally different colors under sunlight. I had to come up with a color scheme for a factory where all the colors matched, but all the different machines used powder coat, wet paint, polyurethane dip, all sorts of things. In the end, how we had to do it was buy a very expensive Pantone physical set of chips and light boxes, which costs thousands of dollars each and physically give these to all of the suppliers to match. We had to include this light box contraption with various bulbs and angles and a camera. You could define the spec by Pantone's written list, but you can't ever meet the spec without Pantone shipping you this science fair project.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  I guess that’s why even Apple seem to struggle to make ‘Space Grey’ a consistent colour.

eichin 2y ago

I went to dig into this a bit (since the obvious way to find out what is trademarked is to read the filing) but the euro trademark viewer fails to load for me in the US; a bit more digging suggests that not only is it not trademarked, but for a bunch of time they were driving Marlboro Red cars instead anyway, as part of a branding deal. So, anyone have leads on any actual evidence here?

sandworm101 2y ago

>> correspond to a list of quantities of specific physical dyes? No. A trademark is not a recipe. What matters is the actual look. As for values, "Ferrari Red" is has defined RGB values according to colorhexa (RGB: (239, 26, 45), CMYK: (0, 89, 81, 6).0) and I am sure is outlined in any contract involving Ferrari sponsorship. No doubt Coke also has very specific values for its version of "red".

xanderlewis 2y ago
But if it’s specified in terms of CMYK, that is a list of quantities of specific dyes, isn’t it?
- kube-system 2y ago
  CMYK is a representation ratios of unspecific dyes, on an unknown medium.
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Ah — true. I thought the dyes used for each colour would be fairly standard, though.
    - sandworm101 2y ago
      Dyes are not like light. Mix any three, regardless of ratio, and you basically always get brown. That's why paint stores carry so many colors.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      They're close, if we're just talking about printer ink. But if you're coloring some other item, you might be using entirely different materials.

mystified5016 2y ago

> Does each set of values (in whatever colour system you’re talking about) correspond to a list of quantities of specific physical dyes? Yes. Pantone colors (an industry standard) are defined as a ratio of Pantone colorants. Those colorants then have specific formulations depending on the type of paint they go in. No matter what though, they're formulated such that the colors reproduce exactly every time (insofar as chemistry and physics allows). This is the same general process that most (all) standards use AFAIK. But at the crux of it, we can measure color very precisely. A specific color correlates to a specific distribution of light wavelengths. Spectrometers are not particularly expensive these days. Believe me, there has been a ton of effort put into this question. Color accuracy is a whole industry that most people have never heard of.

kube-system 2y ago
Pantone is a way to standardize on colors. But that level of precision isn't really necessary for a trademark case. The courts care about whether or not a consumer is confused by the color, and that level of specificity is way more coarse than the details Pantone is concerned about. If you rip off Coke and change the color to the next closest Pantone color, it will make zero difference in your court case.

geor9e 2y ago

It's difficult, that's why Pantone charges thousands of dollars. You know those chameleon car paints that change color based on sunlight or angle? Turns out everything is like that somewhat. You can have two parts match perfectly under a fluorescent light and then look like totally different colors under sunlight. I had to come up with a color scheme for a factory where all the colors matched, but all the different machines used powder coat, wet paint, polyurethane dip, all sorts of things. In the end, how we had to do it was buy a very expensive Pantone physical set of chips and light boxes, which costs thousands of dollars each and physically give these to all of the suppliers to match. We had to include this light box contraption with various bulbs and angles and a camera. You could define the spec by Pantone's written list, but you can't ever meet the spec without Pantone shipping you this science fair project.

xanderlewis 2y ago
I guess that’s why even Apple seem to struggle to make ‘Space Grey’ a consistent colour.