5 ms·

I read this and it struck a chord. A decade or more ago, a friend of mine teaching English in a major state university told me that he was getting lots of stude

by adamc 2y ago

I read this and it struck a chord. A decade or more ago, a friend of mine teaching English in a major state university told me that he was getting lots of students who couldn't seem to read a novel. They could read the words on the page, but they couldn't focus enough to really understand it. My experience is that writing things out always improves my understanding of the subject. It's similar to forcing yourself to write a proof in mathematics, to verify your understanding. The formalism is hugely helpful. If the result of chatgpt is even more kids skating through life without really picking up these skills... it may have tragic consequences. Learning to think well is the single most important thing I got from education. I would argue that improvements in human thinking -- via philosophy, logic, mathematics, the scientific method, and yes, literacy -- have made a huge difference in human lives over the past few thousand years. Not that chatgpt would be the root cause. Chatgpt would just be a symptom of a much bigger problem.

lucianbr 2y ago
> If the result of chatgpt is even more kids skating through life without really picking up these skills... it may have tragic consequences. Learning to think well is the single most important thing I got from education. Do teachers have no role here? "If many kids make a certain choice, there will be big trouble". Maybe teach them to do better? Is the role of educator reduced to giving assignements and grading them in a mindless way? Seems like this would be exactly the point. After all, without schools, people learned less. So now we have schools, and people learn more. We didn't just lament "well if people don't learn, we're all screwed". We did something about it. Is this AI thing really beyond any solution? What has been tried so far?
- adamc 2y ago
  Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from using chatgpt or similar tools may be limited. I come from a family with many teachers. The harsh reality is that teachers can provide a conducive environment, but they just don't have enough time per kid to make nearly the impact that people expect, which is why your home environment is so critical. Teachers don't really teach. They create an environment to help you teach yourself. They can provide lessons, but you always have to do the work of internalizing it. Watching youtube videos is not the same as struggling to write programs. Etc.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    > Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from using chatgpt or similar tools may be limited. I'm not a teacher, and I very well may be missing your point due to my own shortcomings. But I have to ask, would this sentence not apply to people not wanting to learn math because it's hard? (or learn anything at all) > Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from cheating or simply not learning may be limited. I have been in school, and have learned a few things, not many. Next to me were people who learned even less, because they didn't want to. ChatGPT didn't exist then, nor smartphones, and we didn't even have internet access. That just points to schools being imperfect, and seems to have zero connection to ChatGPT.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > But I have to ask, would this sentence not apply to people not wanting to learn math because it's hard? It is pretty easy for a teacher to find a student not learning math; they'll fail the test. I wouldn't fault a teacher for not reliably detecting every student using a lot of LLMs to write their longer papers.
    - adamc 2y ago
      Math is usually assessed via quizzes and tests where you have to show your work, which makes it easier for the teacher to tell if you are getting it. It's a lot harder to assess whether a student has read a novel -- you basically have to make them write a paper on it (and be aware of what they would get from Cliffs notes). Grading papers is a ton of work, and that limits that technique. Also, it's easy to see if someone is using a calculator. But needing to show your work makes that less of an issue anyhow.
- chx 2y ago
  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. We as educators can show the interesting parts, the wonders of a field but more we can't do. The author of the article seems to have not managed to get through. Truth to be told, such happens every day in schools because most schools use completely outdated ways to teach -- frontal pedagogy itself is such -- and so ChatGPT is not their biggest problem but it certainly makes a bad situation worse. Recommended watch: Ken Robinson's Ted talk Do schools kill creativity. Recommended reading: Carl Rogers Freedom to Learn: A View of What Education Might Become. For a shorter read, Aronson's Social Animal has a chapter.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    > You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. This must have been a problem before the invention of LLMs. How was it solved before? Why didn't teaching go out of fashion when TV was invented, or why didn't math disappear when calculators were built? You yourself highlight problems that existed before LLMs, different problems in teaching. Obviously not all teachers quit because of those, and we still have schools. People still learn. Perhaps fewer, and less, but they still do. And perhaps more do. I'm not sure how this can be accurately measured for the entire planet. After all, science still progresses. We've invented LLMs. Once again, as almost all discussions about AI, I feel the main point of this post is "ChatGPT is different than anything that has come before, and will change everything", without actual supporting arguments. Sounds a lot like advertising.
    - falcolas 2y ago
      > why didn't math disappear when calculators were built? Because you can see a child using a calculator. > Why didn't teaching go out of fashion when TV was invented Laws (which put students in classrooms) and a lack of TV use in classrooms. TV use in classrooms was generally driven by the teachers. > "ChatGPT is different than anything that has come before, and will change everything" It's effectively undetectable when used, unless you have students write essays in your presence and on paper. That's what makes it so much harder to counter than previous aids. WRT writing large essays on paper - it's a skill that's not useful and is thus not emphasized in any class - a trend that's existed longer than ChatGPT. Reversing it now would impact all grades, and face major pushback from parents.
- eesmith 2y ago
  > Maybe teach them to do better? Is the role of educator reduced to giving assignements and grading them in a mindless way? Please don't present a strawman point when link is written by a teacher who is clearly not doing that. "As an experienced teacher, I am familiar with pedagogical best practices. I scaffolded assignments. I researched ways to incorporate generative AI in my lesson plans, and I designed activities to draw attention to its limitations. I reminded students that ChatGPT may alter the meaning of a text when prompted to revise, that it can yield biased and inaccurate information, that it does not generate stylistically strong writing and, for those grade-oriented students, that it does not result in A-level work. It did not matter. The students still used it."
- from-nibly 2y ago
  Its the parents job to reinforce love of learning and an understanding of what the heck we are all here for.
chx 2y ago
How many dystopian scifi did we read where the majority of the populace can no longer read or write they just press icons? If we add "the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed" as Hannah Arendt put it, the consequences are indeed catastrophic.
thefz 2y ago
> Not that chatgpt would be the root cause. Chatgpt would just be a symptom of a much bigger problem. I work in support. The amount of people that needs to be shown how to do things an IT professional must already know how to do, is expanding. Now it's 40-50% of the requests I receive. Nobody can read a simple email anymore, let alone parse an entire support article.
- baal80spam 2y ago
  > Nobody can read a simple email anymore, let alone parse an entire support article. IMO it's rather a case of: "I don't have time to read this, just show me already!"

by adamc 2y ago

lucianbr 2y ago

> If the result of chatgpt is even more kids skating through life without really picking up these skills... it may have tragic consequences. Learning to think well is the single most important thing I got from education. Do teachers have no role here? "If many kids make a certain choice, there will be big trouble". Maybe teach them to do better? Is the role of educator reduced to giving assignements and grading them in a mindless way? Seems like this would be exactly the point. After all, without schools, people learned less. So now we have schools, and people learn more. We didn't just lament "well if people don't learn, we're all screwed". We did something about it. Is this AI thing really beyond any solution? What has been tried so far?

adamc 2y ago
Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from using chatgpt or similar tools may be limited. I come from a family with many teachers. The harsh reality is that teachers can provide a conducive environment, but they just don't have enough time per kid to make nearly the impact that people expect, which is why your home environment is so critical. Teachers don't really teach. They create an environment to help you teach yourself. They can provide lessons, but you always have to do the work of internalizing it. Watching youtube videos is not the same as struggling to write programs. Etc.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  > Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from using chatgpt or similar tools may be limited. I'm not a teacher, and I very well may be missing your point due to my own shortcomings. But I have to ask, would this sentence not apply to people not wanting to learn math because it's hard? (or learn anything at all) > Most teachers have large classes. Their ability to monitor each kid and prevent them from cheating or simply not learning may be limited. I have been in school, and have learned a few things, not many. Next to me were people who learned even less, because they didn't want to. ChatGPT didn't exist then, nor smartphones, and we didn't even have internet access. That just points to schools being imperfect, and seems to have zero connection to ChatGPT.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > But I have to ask, would this sentence not apply to people not wanting to learn math because it's hard? It is pretty easy for a teacher to find a student not learning math; they'll fail the test. I wouldn't fault a teacher for not reliably detecting every student using a lot of LLMs to write their longer papers.
  - adamc 2y ago
    Math is usually assessed via quizzes and tests where you have to show your work, which makes it easier for the teacher to tell if you are getting it. It's a lot harder to assess whether a student has read a novel -- you basically have to make them write a paper on it (and be aware of what they would get from Cliffs notes). Grading papers is a ton of work, and that limits that technique. Also, it's easy to see if someone is using a calculator. But needing to show your work makes that less of an issue anyhow.
chx 2y ago
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. We as educators can show the interesting parts, the wonders of a field but more we can't do. The author of the article seems to have not managed to get through. Truth to be told, such happens every day in schools because most schools use completely outdated ways to teach -- frontal pedagogy itself is such -- and so ChatGPT is not their biggest problem but it certainly makes a bad situation worse. Recommended watch: Ken Robinson's Ted talk Do schools kill creativity. Recommended reading: Carl Rogers Freedom to Learn: A View of What Education Might Become. For a shorter read, Aronson's Social Animal has a chapter.
- lucianbr 2y ago
  > You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. This must have been a problem before the invention of LLMs. How was it solved before? Why didn't teaching go out of fashion when TV was invented, or why didn't math disappear when calculators were built? You yourself highlight problems that existed before LLMs, different problems in teaching. Obviously not all teachers quit because of those, and we still have schools. People still learn. Perhaps fewer, and less, but they still do. And perhaps more do. I'm not sure how this can be accurately measured for the entire planet. After all, science still progresses. We've invented LLMs. Once again, as almost all discussions about AI, I feel the main point of this post is "ChatGPT is different than anything that has come before, and will change everything", without actual supporting arguments. Sounds a lot like advertising.
  - falcolas 2y ago
    > why didn't math disappear when calculators were built? Because you can see a child using a calculator. > Why didn't teaching go out of fashion when TV was invented Laws (which put students in classrooms) and a lack of TV use in classrooms. TV use in classrooms was generally driven by the teachers. > "ChatGPT is different than anything that has come before, and will change everything" It's effectively undetectable when used, unless you have students write essays in your presence and on paper. That's what makes it so much harder to counter than previous aids. WRT writing large essays on paper - it's a skill that's not useful and is thus not emphasized in any class - a trend that's existed longer than ChatGPT. Reversing it now would impact all grades, and face major pushback from parents.
eesmith 2y ago
> Maybe teach them to do better? Is the role of educator reduced to giving assignements and grading them in a mindless way? Please don't present a strawman point when link is written by a teacher who is clearly not doing that. "As an experienced teacher, I am familiar with pedagogical best practices. I scaffolded assignments. I researched ways to incorporate generative AI in my lesson plans, and I designed activities to draw attention to its limitations. I reminded students that ChatGPT may alter the meaning of a text when prompted to revise, that it can yield biased and inaccurate information, that it does not generate stylistically strong writing and, for those grade-oriented students, that it does not result in A-level work. It did not matter. The students still used it."
from-nibly 2y ago
Its the parents job to reinforce love of learning and an understanding of what the heck we are all here for.

chx 2y ago

How many dystopian scifi did we read where the majority of the populace can no longer read or write they just press icons? If we add "the result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed" as Hannah Arendt put it, the consequences are indeed catastrophic.

thefz 2y ago

> Not that chatgpt would be the root cause. Chatgpt would just be a symptom of a much bigger problem. I work in support. The amount of people that needs to be shown how to do things an IT professional must already know how to do, is expanding. Now it's 40-50% of the requests I receive. Nobody can read a simple email anymore, let alone parse an entire support article.

baal80spam 2y ago
> Nobody can read a simple email anymore, let alone parse an entire support article. IMO it's rather a case of: "I don't have time to read this, just show me already!"