6 ms·

all right, I'll explain it. One guy's cost is another guy's value (almost by definition - of course there are exceptions such as losing something to nature thr

all right, I'll explain it. One guy's cost is another guy's value (almost by definition - of course there are exceptions such as losing something to nature through accident instead of losing money to persons or companies [of any kind] by making an expenditure of any kind to them) - so the patent trolls "create" whatever value we add up to get to the number quoted. I am not saying anyone supports patents. I'm saying hackernews should be more consistent - or otherwise admit that "creating value" isn't an end in itself. It's the wrong question. Edit: I think the current title is fine. ("Patent trolls created $29B extra cost in the U.S. last year") I just want us to be clear that one guy's cost is another guy's "value". I would love to see more cooperative-optimistic-tit-for-tat solutions to the prisoner's dilemma, so that instead of just saying "creating value" we are more specific about the whole system. This is what (an unnamed restaurant review site) gets wrong and Google gets right, in my opinion. Google adds value whereas (unnamed) removes it. Of course in a naive sense (unnamed) is also "creating value". Just as these patent trolls are. We don't condone it, but let's be consistent.

taligent 14y ago
This is the broken window fallacy. Patent trolls who serve no purpose other than to litigate don't create value. And if we take one in particular Lodsys. They had the potential to destroy a lot of value when they sued small app developers many of whom simply didn't have the resources to defend themselves.
- its_so_on 14y ago
  Exactly. And yet by the business ethics that are rampant here, they do create value (see my cousin comment). These aren't "the system". These are specific for-profit enterprises. If an enterprise shrinks the size of the economy by $1b but in the process gets people to pay it $100m, then by getting people to make that payment it has "created 100m of value." Nevermind the effect on the rest of the system. Please be consistent here.
  - reitzensteinm 14y ago
    There is no inconsistency here, you're again falling for the broken window fallacy. Busy work does not create value; eliminating it does. The simplest way to demonstrate it is to look at the industrial revolution. Vast amounts of people were put out of work because automation made the economy more efficient. $1bn industries, as you say, were permanently shrunk to $100m industries, left right and center. All those workers displaced eventually found employment elsewhere, and it turned out to be one of the largest economic booms in history. Would you rather we still weave our sheets by hand employing 100 times as many workers as the modern textile industry, each one costing $1000? Because that's exactly the consequence of your line of argument.
    - its_so_on 14y ago
      We're talking about the revenues the company creates for itself. (See my other comment.) I think the order of magnitude is right for the amount for-profit troll companies and troll legal divisions at bigger companies doing elective litigation book as resulting revenue. The systemic cost could be higher.
koide 14y ago
Depends on what's your definition of value. Yours seems to be "profit". In the typical entrepreneur sense, you are selling/renting something that the other people want or need without any coercion whatsoever. I bet the people being sued didn't want or need to pay lawyers and settlements, short of being forced by the system.
- its_so_on 14y ago
  They weren't forced by a nebulous system but by a for-profit company. Hackernews needs to be consistent - that for-profit company saw value there, and created that value. (In the ycombinator sense.) Do you really not see the difference between a broken window and a company getting people to pay it to install windows through legal pressure? I'm disagreeing with the definition of "value" used around here - for normal companies, not patent trolls - and to show my disapproval with this notion I insist that the word value be applied here as well.
  - koide 14y ago
    I'm not aware that the ycombinator sense of value is profit (or maybe income?). Not saying it isn't, I'm just unaware of that. And when I said system, I meant the law forcing the companies to pay, not the troll using the law as a tool to create profit. We could enter murky territory on whether other forced forms of income (taxes or fines, for example) provide value, they are forced but on the other hands they are supposedly used to common benefit, instead of private profit.
  - prodigal_erik 14y ago
    Consistent? There are thousands of commentators here trying to gratify each others' intellectual curiosity. We aren't required to agree on everything, and if we did, hardly any of us would have anything useful to say. For me, value is relative to the status quo ante. The difference between trade and extortion is in what would have happened if you weren't present and making the offer. Is everyone slightly worse off, or better?
rjtavares 14y ago
What you said doesn't make sense. One guy's cost is another guy's revenues, not value. A good way to put it would be: "Patent laws and companies created a market for Patent Trolling that is worth $29B per year."
- its_so_on 14y ago
  That is fair and unbiased, I would approve of this change to the title.
reitzensteinm 14y ago
You're free to argue that patents are a net positive to society, but to argue a priori that $29B of wealth transfer = $29B of wealth creation, almost by definition, is completely broken thinking. By your standard, Bernie Madoff created $18B in value. HN as a group may have many contradictions and blind spots in its general wisdom, but you haven't identified one of them.
- its_so_on 14y ago
  All right: how much of the quoted sum do you think the (for-profit) patent troll companies book as revenue? I think the order of magnitude is right. (Remember that traditional comapnies can also play the game and book some of the settlements etc as revenue - i.e. elective litigation.) Give me your guess, if you think that the article quotes the systemic cost and not the part that is booked as revenue.
  - reitzensteinm 14y ago
    What I'm saying in it doesn't matter what the patent troll companies book as revenue. That's just the wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is not necessarily value creation. This is obvious, because if we all pay everyone else on the planet $100 a day we don't magically have an econmy worth $1.3 × 10^24. Wealth transfer often destroys value. Wealth unjustly taken away from value creators becomes a disincentive to produce. You have to look at wealth creation. Are the patents involved in litigation honest to god inventions that made the world a better place? Wealth was created. Eg, the first retrovirus medication. Are the patents involved non inventions that were of no use, but are broad enough that patent trolls can, without merit, start seeking rent on products from companies they no part in creating? No wealth was created. Eg Lodsys. In general, different segments of HN disagree over which patents fall into which categories, but the vast majority agree, myself included, that software patents basically all fall in bucket #2. This is my last reply to you, as I'm pretty sure by now that you're just trolling, and HN doesn't need to be polluted with this thread.
- bigiain 14y ago
  There is a previous transaction though - the patent trolls acquire their patent portfolios from, in the long run, inventors. They "bought" and "own" them, and are now asserting those rights, to the expense of $29B to other companies who should be licensing the rights. Nobody blames landlords of costing businesses billions of dollars a year - they own property and businesses pay rent. Nobody builds a business using a landlords property without paying rent, then plausibly claims their legal costs defending themselves against landlords asserting their rights are somehow an unexpected and unfair imposition. (Well, actually food carts probably do exactly that, but nobody writes academic papers claiming billions of dollars worth of cost for them…) I haven't read the whole paper, but I wonder about two other numbers - 1) how much money did the NPE's pay to the inventors of the patents they're defending (who under the current system have every right to choose "selling their patents/IP" as their means of monetizing their inventingwork)? and 2) how much would licensing the existing patents (instead of running up legal bill later) have been, compared to the $29B losses described here? I'm not saying the current system is "right", but it is reasonably well understood. I can only assume the $29B cost is accepted as a "cost of doing business" by companies who know (or even just suspect) they may be infringing patents? (or perhaps it's not an assumed "cost", and many businesses choose to gamble that they'll never be held accountable?)

taligent 14y ago

This is the broken window fallacy. Patent trolls who serve no purpose other than to litigate don't create value. And if we take one in particular Lodsys. They had the potential to destroy a lot of value when they sued small app developers many of whom simply didn't have the resources to defend themselves.

its_so_on 14y ago
Exactly. And yet by the business ethics that are rampant here, they do create value (see my cousin comment). These aren't "the system". These are specific for-profit enterprises. If an enterprise shrinks the size of the economy by $1b but in the process gets people to pay it $100m, then by getting people to make that payment it has "created 100m of value." Nevermind the effect on the rest of the system. Please be consistent here.
- reitzensteinm 14y ago
  There is no inconsistency here, you're again falling for the broken window fallacy. Busy work does not create value; eliminating it does. The simplest way to demonstrate it is to look at the industrial revolution. Vast amounts of people were put out of work because automation made the economy more efficient. $1bn industries, as you say, were permanently shrunk to $100m industries, left right and center. All those workers displaced eventually found employment elsewhere, and it turned out to be one of the largest economic booms in history. Would you rather we still weave our sheets by hand employing 100 times as many workers as the modern textile industry, each one costing $1000? Because that's exactly the consequence of your line of argument.
  - its_so_on 14y ago
    We're talking about the revenues the company creates for itself. (See my other comment.) I think the order of magnitude is right for the amount for-profit troll companies and troll legal divisions at bigger companies doing elective litigation book as resulting revenue. The systemic cost could be higher.

koide 14y ago

Depends on what's your definition of value. Yours seems to be "profit". In the typical entrepreneur sense, you are selling/renting something that the other people want or need without any coercion whatsoever. I bet the people being sued didn't want or need to pay lawyers and settlements, short of being forced by the system.

its_so_on 14y ago
They weren't forced by a nebulous system but by a for-profit company. Hackernews needs to be consistent - that for-profit company saw value there, and created that value. (In the ycombinator sense.) Do you really not see the difference between a broken window and a company getting people to pay it to install windows through legal pressure? I'm disagreeing with the definition of "value" used around here - for normal companies, not patent trolls - and to show my disapproval with this notion I insist that the word value be applied here as well.
- koide 14y ago
  I'm not aware that the ycombinator sense of value is profit (or maybe income?). Not saying it isn't, I'm just unaware of that. And when I said system, I meant the law forcing the companies to pay, not the troll using the law as a tool to create profit. We could enter murky territory on whether other forced forms of income (taxes or fines, for example) provide value, they are forced but on the other hands they are supposedly used to common benefit, instead of private profit.
- prodigal_erik 14y ago
  Consistent? There are thousands of commentators here trying to gratify each others' intellectual curiosity. We aren't required to agree on everything, and if we did, hardly any of us would have anything useful to say. For me, value is relative to the status quo ante. The difference between trade and extortion is in what would have happened if you weren't present and making the offer. Is everyone slightly worse off, or better?

rjtavares 14y ago

What you said doesn't make sense. One guy's cost is another guy's revenues, not value. A good way to put it would be: "Patent laws and companies created a market for Patent Trolling that is worth $29B per year."

its_so_on 14y ago
That is fair and unbiased, I would approve of this change to the title.

reitzensteinm 14y ago

You're free to argue that patents are a net positive to society, but to argue a priori that $29B of wealth transfer = $29B of wealth creation, almost by definition, is completely broken thinking. By your standard, Bernie Madoff created $18B in value. HN as a group may have many contradictions and blind spots in its general wisdom, but you haven't identified one of them.

its_so_on 14y ago
All right: how much of the quoted sum do you think the (for-profit) patent troll companies book as revenue? I think the order of magnitude is right. (Remember that traditional comapnies can also play the game and book some of the settlements etc as revenue - i.e. elective litigation.) Give me your guess, if you think that the article quotes the systemic cost and not the part that is booked as revenue.
- reitzensteinm 14y ago
  What I'm saying in it doesn't matter what the patent troll companies book as revenue. That's just the wealth transfer. Wealth transfer is not necessarily value creation. This is obvious, because if we all pay everyone else on the planet $100 a day we don't magically have an econmy worth $1.3 × 10^24. Wealth transfer often destroys value. Wealth unjustly taken away from value creators becomes a disincentive to produce. You have to look at wealth creation. Are the patents involved in litigation honest to god inventions that made the world a better place? Wealth was created. Eg, the first retrovirus medication. Are the patents involved non inventions that were of no use, but are broad enough that patent trolls can, without merit, start seeking rent on products from companies they no part in creating? No wealth was created. Eg Lodsys. In general, different segments of HN disagree over which patents fall into which categories, but the vast majority agree, myself included, that software patents basically all fall in bucket #2. This is my last reply to you, as I'm pretty sure by now that you're just trolling, and HN doesn't need to be polluted with this thread.
bigiain 14y ago
There is a previous transaction though - the patent trolls acquire their patent portfolios from, in the long run, inventors. They "bought" and "own" them, and are now asserting those rights, to the expense of $29B to other companies who should be licensing the rights. Nobody blames landlords of costing businesses billions of dollars a year - they own property and businesses pay rent. Nobody builds a business using a landlords property without paying rent, then plausibly claims their legal costs defending themselves against landlords asserting their rights are somehow an unexpected and unfair imposition. (Well, actually food carts probably do exactly that, but nobody writes academic papers claiming billions of dollars worth of cost for them…) I haven't read the whole paper, but I wonder about two other numbers - 1) how much money did the NPE's pay to the inventors of the patents they're defending (who under the current system have every right to choose "selling their patents/IP" as their means of monetizing their inventingwork)? and 2) how much would licensing the existing patents (instead of running up legal bill later) have been, compared to the $29B losses described here? I'm not saying the current system is "right", but it is reasonably well understood. I can only assume the $29B cost is accepted as a "cost of doing business" by companies who know (or even just suspect) they may be infringing patents? (or perhaps it's not an assumed "cost", and many businesses choose to gamble that they'll never be held accountable?)