3 ms·

By validating each account with a passport and ensuring that only one account per passport is allowed.

by dom96 2y ago

lobsterthief 2y ago
What about people who buy stolen passports on the dark web? Or passport details that get leaked in data breaches
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  We need a German to chime in with whatever word describes this scenario, when someone suggests an action is not worth doing because of corner cases or inability to perfectly execute a process. In this hypothetical, let's say we'd tackle the dark web passport market issue when we get there.
  - Tepix 2y ago
    In this case, the english word overkill does a good job already.
  - dom96 2y ago
    hehe yeah, it's funny how many are focusing on the small edge case that makes a certain solution not 100% perfect. There is also another issue: people can have more than one passport if they're dual citizens. But you know what... I think that's fine.
    - lobsterthief 2y ago
      Great points
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Passports have digitally signed certificates in them, readable by any device with an NFC radio. It's easy enough to extract that data with a mobile app, and now you have an unforgeable file that can be hashed. Of course whether users will bother to sign up for something like a social network if they have to go rummage around and find a passport, install a mobile app etc, I don't know. But it's technically possible and I've proposed such a scheme years ago. For bonus points do the hashing inside a secure enclave so the ePassport data is never upload to a remote server in the clear.
metalliqaz 2y ago
who is going to upload their passport to use social media?
- dom96 2y ago
  People already upload their passport for lots of things, why not social media?
  - metalliqaz 2y ago
    > People already upload their passport for lots of things I sure don't. > why not social media? privacy?
    - dom96 2y ago
      For me, sacrificing some privacy is worth it to be in a community with users who I know are real people. If that's not something that is important to you then that's fine. In my case, right now it's very easy for you to figure out my real name by just googling my nickname. Registering on a website like the one I am implementing won't sacrifice much more of my privacy.
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Why would I ever give my passport to your website or anyone elses?
- dom96 2y ago
  Because it enables you to be a part of a social media that is guaranteed to be majority human-centred. Why wouldn't you give your passport to a website? Don't you already do so for crypto or other banking?
  - hnthrowaway_369 2y ago
    [dead]
SoftTalker 2y ago
Aside from the practical and technical problems you're greatly limiting your audience. Most people who don't travel internationally don't have a passport. In Europe this might be a smaller number but in the USA and Canada I would guess this is a majority of people. Non-citizens won't have a passport. Most young adults will not have one. Many older people will have let theirs expire.
- dom96 2y ago
  Yeah, that's the challenge. My bet is that there are enough people out there with passports to make an interesting social network. Of course, getting someone to share their passport will be another filter. But I hope that I can convince people that the benefits are worth it (and that I will be able to keep their data safe, by only storing hashes of everything).
  - pixl97 2y ago
    Ok, so you get some critical amount of 'humans' to share "a" passport. Now you've built an expensive and high quality lead finder for scammers/spammers. You've increased the value floor for people submitting fake passports. Also, how are you paying for verification of the passports?, VC money to get from the loss phase to the making enough to support itself on ads? How are you dealing with government data requests, especially in the case where said data can be attributed to a real human?. Maybe I'm wrong, but just a social network of 'real people' doesn't seem like enough in itself. What is going to bring people there with the restrictions and potential risks you're creating.
    - dom96 2y ago
      You could very well be right. I'm willing to give it a shot and see. All I can say is that I personally see huge value in a social network for real people. Personally I am sick of arguing with what are likely legions of duplicate accounts/bots/russian trolls online. I want some reassurance that I'm not wasting my time and am actually reaching real humans in my interactions online. Success to me is 1000 MAU. There are companies out there that do passport verification for a reasonable fee with a fair amount of free verifications to start with (which will handle 1000 MAU just fine). If the number of users wishing to take part is significantly higher then I will explore either ads or charging a small fee during registration. I'm still very far from needing to cross that bridge though. Same for some of the other questions you've raised. I'd have to do a lot more research to come to a solid stance of what to do when government data requests come in. But I would guess that there isn't much choice but to abide by the request. If you want true anonymity from the government then this place will not be for you (but then I'd say not many social networks are for you in that case)
cynicalpeace 2y ago
No passport, but perhaps face picture that is also encoded with on device verifiable token. I think there is actually a use case for blockchain (don't pile on!) for this. I have a vague idea of a unique token that goes on every camera and can be verified from the blockchain. If a picture has the token you know it's real... like i said, it's vague idea but i think it's coming
- dom96 2y ago
  No need for blockchain. All you need is this: https://contentauthenticity.org/ https://contentauthenticity.org/. The problem with this is that it's still easy to forge. I'll certainly consider playing with ways to identify human uniqueness that don't require passports. But passports are the most obvious route to doing so.
  - cynicalpeace 2y ago
    Seems like it's sorta what I'm talking about? Hard to judge because they need to work on their communication skills. It reads like techno-corpo-babble and I'm a professional software engineer.
    - ddtaylor 2y ago
      This seems more targeted at us: https://opensource.contentauthenticity.org/docs/getting-started/ https://opensource.contentauthenticity.org/docs/getting-star...
n_ary 2y ago
How do I know that, you will handle my passport data with care? Banks I can trust(despite numerous leaks), you as a random social media or online service with zero regulation, I won’t. Plus this opens up immense ways to sue you for collecting unnecessary data and personal information, unless you are massive and have an army or lawyer or have a KYC requirement.
- dom96 2y ago
  I plan to outline exactly what data I store. I don't plan to store raw passport number/name details, rather a hash so I can verify the same passport isn't used twice. So even if the DB leaks no one (except the government) will be able to tie your real life identity to the account.
  - ddtaylor 2y ago
    In the US there are a lot of companies that do these kinds of identity verification for you. I had to do one when I was setting up a new Steam Developer account and many use them for regular day-to-day verification like for work or when submitting important government requests. It would seem a lot better to just partner with an existing company that takes care of that part of identity verification. Your job is still to compose all of these signals and metrics and distill them into a simple "everyone is human" network, but the actual job of being a passport jockey can be avoided IMO.
    - dom96 2y ago
      Yep. I’ve considered doing it myself but it would require setting up an app for iOS and Android. For now relying on existing services will be fine. If this takes off I might set up my own passport verification service.
gregw134 2y ago
Why not require a non-voip phone number instead of passport?
- dom96 2y ago
  SIM cards are as cheap as £1 where I live. £1 per account is nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if there are ways to get unique numbers for even less.
  - ddtaylor 2y ago
    There are lots of ways to get verification codes for any number of phones for absurdly cheap. They run large farms (or hacked devices or shady apps, who knows) and can provide a service where you get hundreds of SMS verifications for a few bucks a month.

By validating each account with a passport and ensuring that only one account per passport is allowed.

by dom96 2y ago

By validating each account with a passport and ensuring that only one account per passport is allowed.

lobsterthief 2y ago

What about people who buy stolen passports on the dark web? Or passport details that get leaked in data breaches

unethical_ban 2y ago
We need a German to chime in with whatever word describes this scenario, when someone suggests an action is not worth doing because of corner cases or inability to perfectly execute a process. In this hypothetical, let's say we'd tackle the dark web passport market issue when we get there.
- Tepix 2y ago
  In this case, the english word overkill does a good job already.
- dom96 2y ago
  hehe yeah, it's funny how many are focusing on the small edge case that makes a certain solution not 100% perfect. There is also another issue: people can have more than one passport if they're dual citizens. But you know what... I think that's fine.
  - lobsterthief 2y ago
    Great points
mike_hearn 2y ago
Passports have digitally signed certificates in them, readable by any device with an NFC radio. It's easy enough to extract that data with a mobile app, and now you have an unforgeable file that can be hashed. Of course whether users will bother to sign up for something like a social network if they have to go rummage around and find a passport, install a mobile app etc, I don't know. But it's technically possible and I've proposed such a scheme years ago. For bonus points do the hashing inside a secure enclave so the ePassport data is never upload to a remote server in the clear.

metalliqaz 2y ago

who is going to upload their passport to use social media?

dom96 2y ago
People already upload their passport for lots of things, why not social media?
- metalliqaz 2y ago
  > People already upload their passport for lots of things I sure don't. > why not social media? privacy?
  - dom96 2y ago
    For me, sacrificing some privacy is worth it to be in a community with users who I know are real people. If that's not something that is important to you then that's fine. In my case, right now it's very easy for you to figure out my real name by just googling my nickname. Registering on a website like the one I am implementing won't sacrifice much more of my privacy.

kjkjadksj 2y ago

Why would I ever give my passport to your website or anyone elses?

dom96 2y ago
Because it enables you to be a part of a social media that is guaranteed to be majority human-centred. Why wouldn't you give your passport to a website? Don't you already do so for crypto or other banking?
- hnthrowaway_369 2y ago
  [dead]

SoftTalker 2y ago

Aside from the practical and technical problems you're greatly limiting your audience. Most people who don't travel internationally don't have a passport. In Europe this might be a smaller number but in the USA and Canada I would guess this is a majority of people. Non-citizens won't have a passport. Most young adults will not have one. Many older people will have let theirs expire.

dom96 2y ago
Yeah, that's the challenge. My bet is that there are enough people out there with passports to make an interesting social network. Of course, getting someone to share their passport will be another filter. But I hope that I can convince people that the benefits are worth it (and that I will be able to keep their data safe, by only storing hashes of everything).
- pixl97 2y ago
  Ok, so you get some critical amount of 'humans' to share "a" passport. Now you've built an expensive and high quality lead finder for scammers/spammers. You've increased the value floor for people submitting fake passports. Also, how are you paying for verification of the passports?, VC money to get from the loss phase to the making enough to support itself on ads? How are you dealing with government data requests, especially in the case where said data can be attributed to a real human?. Maybe I'm wrong, but just a social network of 'real people' doesn't seem like enough in itself. What is going to bring people there with the restrictions and potential risks you're creating.
  - dom96 2y ago
    You could very well be right. I'm willing to give it a shot and see. All I can say is that I personally see huge value in a social network for real people. Personally I am sick of arguing with what are likely legions of duplicate accounts/bots/russian trolls online. I want some reassurance that I'm not wasting my time and am actually reaching real humans in my interactions online. Success to me is 1000 MAU. There are companies out there that do passport verification for a reasonable fee with a fair amount of free verifications to start with (which will handle 1000 MAU just fine). If the number of users wishing to take part is significantly higher then I will explore either ads or charging a small fee during registration. I'm still very far from needing to cross that bridge though. Same for some of the other questions you've raised. I'd have to do a lot more research to come to a solid stance of what to do when government data requests come in. But I would guess that there isn't much choice but to abide by the request. If you want true anonymity from the government then this place will not be for you (but then I'd say not many social networks are for you in that case)

cynicalpeace 2y ago

No passport, but perhaps face picture that is also encoded with on device verifiable token. I think there is actually a use case for blockchain (don't pile on!) for this. I have a vague idea of a unique token that goes on every camera and can be verified from the blockchain. If a picture has the token you know it's real... like i said, it's vague idea but i think it's coming

dom96 2y ago
No need for blockchain. All you need is this: https://contentauthenticity.org/ https://contentauthenticity.org/. The problem with this is that it's still easy to forge. I'll certainly consider playing with ways to identify human uniqueness that don't require passports. But passports are the most obvious route to doing so.
- cynicalpeace 2y ago
  Seems like it's sorta what I'm talking about? Hard to judge because they need to work on their communication skills. It reads like techno-corpo-babble and I'm a professional software engineer.
  - ddtaylor 2y ago
    This seems more targeted at us: https://opensource.contentauthenticity.org/docs/getting-started/ https://opensource.contentauthenticity.org/docs/getting-star...

n_ary 2y ago

How do I know that, you will handle my passport data with care? Banks I can trust(despite numerous leaks), you as a random social media or online service with zero regulation, I won’t. Plus this opens up immense ways to sue you for collecting unnecessary data and personal information, unless you are massive and have an army or lawyer or have a KYC requirement.

dom96 2y ago
I plan to outline exactly what data I store. I don't plan to store raw passport number/name details, rather a hash so I can verify the same passport isn't used twice. So even if the DB leaks no one (except the government) will be able to tie your real life identity to the account.
- ddtaylor 2y ago
  In the US there are a lot of companies that do these kinds of identity verification for you. I had to do one when I was setting up a new Steam Developer account and many use them for regular day-to-day verification like for work or when submitting important government requests. It would seem a lot better to just partner with an existing company that takes care of that part of identity verification. Your job is still to compose all of these signals and metrics and distill them into a simple "everyone is human" network, but the actual job of being a passport jockey can be avoided IMO.
  - dom96 2y ago
    Yep. I’ve considered doing it myself but it would require setting up an app for iOS and Android. For now relying on existing services will be fine. If this takes off I might set up my own passport verification service.

gregw134 2y ago

Why not require a non-voip phone number instead of passport?

dom96 2y ago
SIM cards are as cheap as £1 where I live. £1 per account is nothing and I wouldn't be surprised if there are ways to get unique numbers for even less.
- ddtaylor 2y ago
  There are lots of ways to get verification codes for any number of phones for absurdly cheap. They run large farms (or hacked devices or shady apps, who knows) and can provide a service where you get hundreds of SMS verifications for a few bucks a month.