21 ms·

Why learn C?

92 points by Garbage 14y ago

beehave 14y ago
1. To build new operating systems. 2. To modify existing ones. 3. It's easier to write than assembly language.
deadwait 14y ago
the subtitles on the interview are just amazing
zxcdw 14y ago
I think C++ has greatly made C obsolete in many fields, I'd rather see people embracing C++ than C when it comes to learning and using either. For example almost everything C teaches about "low-level" and "how things work" is learned by C++ too, while giving possibility to remain at higher level of abstraction most of the time - if so desired.
- shin_lao 14y ago
  C++ is awesome, no doubt about it. However it's a superset of C and the entry cost is much, much higher. Learning C is good for your culture, learning C++ is useful only if you plan on using it.
  - jaredsohn 14y ago
    >However it's a superset of C This isn't 100% true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#With_C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#With_C
- 16s 14y ago
  gcc itself is switching to C++ by default in 4.8. Source: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-04/msg00054.html http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-04/msg00054.html
  - splicer 14y ago
    What the hell is g++ for? This is a stupid idea IMO.
    - cygx 14y ago
      The post is about building GCC itself with a C++ compiler, which is already possible on most(?) platforms: Basically, the default of the --enable-build-with-cxx configuration option will change, which does not affect the default input language of the gcc executable (which is chosen by file extension anyway).
      - splicer 14y ago
        Ah, okay. That I'm fine with. :)
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      For compiling C++ code. Which gcc will start using. This is just a way to make compiling gcc take 20 times longer.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Agree but kinda Disagree C++ is built on C. You need to know C (but maybe not the C library) to know C++. Like pointers
  - ginko 14y ago
    I think that in order to be proficient in C++, you also need to understand what separates C++ from C and how C++'s features (classes, overloaded functions, templates) map to C.
  - 16s 14y ago
    "Built on C" seems like the wrong phrase to me. "Extension of C" is a better fit.
  - pjmlp 14y ago
    > You need to know C Learning C before C++ is a very bad idea, as it will make you try to use language patterns that are considered bad ideas in C++, as there are safer alternatives.
- sparkie 14y ago
  The majority of good, and reusable code is in libraries - as it should be. If you write a library in C++, you're limiting potential users of said library to only using C++, because there's no ABI compatibility with other languages. C on the other hand, has almost global compatibility with other general purpose languages. It should therefore be everyone's effort to write good C libraries and promote code reuse. Of course, there's no harm in writing your library in C++ and exposing a C interface to it - but that's not necessarily as simple as it might sound. The better approach is to design your API in C and then figure out how to implement it in C++. As for writing the actual applications (non-reusable part), there are obvious advantages to using C++ over C.
ginko 14y ago
C is the lingua franca of computing. Pretty much every programming language in existence has bindings to C.
- Shivetya 14y ago
  except all those written before it? I program on a mid range system. If I want to write in C for it I could but I have no reason too. I use two languages that appeared well before C and produce very effective and near bullet proof code because of it. There are some big names in the language world that were here before C and some probably had influence on that language. While I would not mind refreshing my C, having not had any use for it since 85, I am not even sure where to start.
  - gms7777 14y ago
    > except all those written before it? Out of curiosity, what do you use? My history is not too great, but I can't think of many languages that came before C that are still in use today. I actually use fortran at work (along with C), and I'll give a pass to Lisp (it seems like c predates the dialects that are still in common use, ie common lisp and scheme), but it seems like most others (Pascal, COBOL, Basic) are more curiosities in the modern world. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    - batista 14y ago
      Actually Cobol is pretty much everywhere in the substrate, but not in visible places... banks, insurance companies, and the like have tons of cobol code in use.
      - RodgerTheGreat 14y ago
        And if we count VBA, VB6 and VB.net as spiritual successors to BASIC there's an absolutely ungodly amount of new BASIC code in use and being written every day anywhere people use Excel. It's ugly, but it's a large part of how business is done.
  - 14y ago
swa14 14y ago
Because when programming in any language, you can't rise above your own proficiency in C. That is my observation anyway. I think it has something to do with the deeper understanding of references and dereferencing, and the inner workings of languages in general.
- kd0amg 14y ago
  I think that may only hold when working with sufficiently C-like languages.
  - dllthomas 14y ago
    In particular, I think that Lisp hackers of old put a solid lie to the claim.
- recursive 14y ago
  If I've never written any C, does that mean that I have no proficiency in any language?
fraughtwith 14y ago
There's so much C code in so many critical environments that this language is going to be around for much longer than anyone would like... It'll be the Latin of computing. There will be some poor soul studying and using C in a thousand years.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  > There will be some poor soul studying and using C in a thousand years. I would hope that by that time there will be powerful algorithms you can use to transcompile old C code into $LANGUAGE code. EDIT: Well actually I would hope by that time strong A.I has been invented and asking flesh and blood humans to write code will elicit some really strange looks.
  - powerslave12r 14y ago
    That made me sadder than it should have.
quesera 14y ago
Because if you don't know C, you don't know what's actually happening when you write software. Because if you don't know C, you've only seen the map, not the territory. Because if you don't know C, you're looking at the finger, not the moon. Because if you don't know C, everything you think about computers is a leaky abstraction. The counterpoint is that flawed models are often good enough. Newton's theory of gravitation comes to mind. But if you like knowing what's going on, either for personal satisfaction, or because what you're working on is not fully encapsulated by a different language (inevitably, originally, written in C), then C is both interesting and useful.
- zxcdw 14y ago
  Comments like these seem to have the underlying idea that C somehow explains how things work. It doesn't. It doesn't explain at all. It's only an abstraction among the others - granted, it's a lower level abstraction. To understand how a computer works when it executes a program, accesses some data, writes to a disk, spawns a process and forks it, then kills the child after a certain interrupt can pretty much only be learned by learning assembly and some hardware and OS-related literature. Of course, for most programmers(let alone people in general) this is nearly useless information today. It's obsolete. And that's good. But what C teaches you about how "things are under the hood", is just a leaky abstraction. C doesn't care about such low-level things because they are implementation details. Standard C could be ran by pen and paper just as well as on a computer. It's a "black box". Takes input and produces output according to the standard. Frankly, the only "low-level" thing C has over e.g. Java is that most domains in which C is used are working close to the hardware and it runs on "the real hard machine". With C, in it's modern domains, you are exposed to these "low-level" details, not because of C, but because of the domain. With many other languages the user doesn't have to deal with such problems because of the problem domain is different.
  - eliben 14y ago
    Of course C doesn't "explain" how things work. C is a language, it doesn't explain anything. However, when you write and read real-life C code, you have a chance to learn how software works under the hood much better than with higher-level languages. The low-level rigid type system makes you see how data structures are really laid out. Pointers and direct memory addressing makes you realize how memory is really managed, the real meaning of passing things by value and by reference, and many more things.
noonespecial 14y ago
Yes, C is just another arbitrary abstraction layer among many others, but it occupies a special position in modern computing. C is the lowest abstraction layer that compiles on the most hardware. "Where the falling angel meets the rising ape", as it were.
tjr 14y ago
If you're interested only in learning about lower levels of the computer, and don't need to actually write at lower levels, it may be better to learn, say, MMIX. But lots of people do need to learn C. They might not be working on hip new social web services, but they're out there. In my work, I have observed recent computer science graduates filter in and get assigned to program embedded systems using C. Their knowledge of C was minimal. Their code tended to be suboptimal, or even bizarre to the point of, I wasn't sure why it compiled. I recommended they get a copy of K&R. They did. I don't think they got much out of it. I don't blame them personally. They simply had not been taught C in school, and had never had a reason to learn it before. Trying to learn it on the job with antiquated books didn't seem to work very well. (Though some did eventually come to learn C well. Others migrated to different assignments not involving C.) Whatever your reason for wanting to learn C, be it purely academic, or if you actually need to program with it, fresh, modern educational resources are a good thing.
mike-cardwell 14y ago
I've been programming Perl for going on ten years, I know a bit of Java as well, and have spent the last 4 or 5 years learning a lot about web development. I even recently learned nodejs and coffeescript to a pretty decent level and released https://emailprivacytester.com/ https://emailprivacytester.com/ using it. I just started to learn C and C++ about a week ago. I did a module of it at University many years ago, but I never kept it up afterwards and forgot nearly all of it. Anyway, I am completely loving learning it at the moment. It just feels like I have so much more control of what I'm doing, and I can't wait to build and release my first non-trivial application using it. I want to know C well. Mostly, I just want to be able to confidently hack on the massive amount of software that has been written in C over the years. [edit] I've always had this feeling in the back of my mind, that no matter how good I am at Perl or JavaScript or HTML or Java, I will never feel like an "expert" until I am good at C.
- eric_bullington 14y ago
  Coming from a web development and Python background, and starting to really learn C about a year ago, I know the exact feeling you're talking about. As many cool Python programs I had written, I just didn't feel like it was a "real" program until I programmed and compiled an application in C. And I love how C has made my Python so much more powerful, both through ctypes and Cython. Finally, C was the gateway to Lua, which I'm now enthralled with: a tiny, extraordinarily fast and flexible scripting language that is easily compiled into a C program, thus giving me that single-file binary executable I cherish so much. I know I could do the same with Python, but LuaJIT is just so easy to embed, and yet so incredibly fast. Learning C has opened a lot of doors.
  - primitur 14y ago
    I just want to check in with you: I too am in the midst of a total love affair with Lua/LuaJIT. That one little VM has really turned into something amazing. And now, the ways it is used!!! Phenomenal.
    - eric_bullington 14y ago
tosseraccount 14y ago
Well. Think about it. Probably 95% of the instructions executed on your computer were generated by a C compiler or inlined withing a C program. Check out how many of your programs are linked to a standard or special C library. Perl, bash, Python etc. are written in C. Most libraries are written in C.Throw in what's basically C programming in Objective C and C++ and we're closer to 99%
- Apocryphon 14y ago
  If C++ counts, does Java/C# count as well? If so then we'd definitely hit around 99%
  - tosseraccount 14y ago
    No. C++ is a superset of C. You can write C and jam it into a C++ program. This happens often enough in C++ programs. Java absolutely does count. The Sun JVM was written in C !!! So, yes, every java program is executing instructions generated by a C program.
    - kqr2 14y ago
      Some JVMs are actually self-hosting: http://jikesrvm.org/ http://jikesrvm.org/ A distinguishing characteristic of Jikes RVM is that it is implemented in the Java™ programming language and is self-hosted i.e., its Java code runs on itself without requiring a second virtual machine. Most other virtual machines for the Java platform are written in native code (typically, C or C++). A Java implementation provides ease of portability, and a seamless integration of virtual machine and application resources such as objects, threads, and operating-system interfaces.
dsirijus 14y ago
I've recently started relearning my C skill, since I've had not touch it in almost a decade. I'm combining LCTHW, K&R and Sedgewick's Algorithms in C series in the process. I have not had so much fun programming since high school. The general feeling of increased brainpower lurks with me these days mostly because of it.
jetsnoc 14y ago
I think learning many different kinds of languages is important. The breadth of experience makes you a better programmer as a whole. During the trial and sampling of many languages you will fall in love with one. Stick with that one! Your job should be fun. Each person has different learning modalities and concepts they just "get" that are congruent with how they think so no one language is perfect for everyone. But, why learn C? Learn C to broaden your experience and gain a marketable skill in the most popular programming language[1]. You don't have to become an expert in it but I think everyone should dabble in it a little bit! 1: TIOBE index, June 2012
- primitur 14y ago
  >I think learning many different kinds of languages is important. I agree with you, 100%. There are no ultimate languages. You have a broad field, as a developer, of words to use - choose the one you a) get along with, b) can comfortably use, c) and are interested in actually using for something. What I have observed is that good developers learn other languages faster, the more they do it, i.e. if you set your goal higher, you get better at it each time you iterate. I tend to think, as a generality, that eventually there is a point for each individual developer where the effort to learn some new language/codebase/taxonomy gets flatter and flatter, to the point that there are no 'easier nor harder' levels of it any more. C is still very, very useful. $35 worth of pocketable computing power and a built-in C compiler can still deliver kick-ass results.
andrewgu 14y ago
This quote is the most important out of the whole bunch: "It's an important, foundational language that requires you to understand the full stack of the technology. If you learn C, you'll understand computers at a much more profound level than if you don't." We should be careful about the word "learn." I read it as "understand C and master C," not simply being able to write C code. Why read Shakespeare when you're learning to write? Why study Bach when you're playing jazz? You can definitely skip Shakespeare and Bach, but I think it's universally acknowledged that studying their work gives you important foundational knowledge even if they don't apply directly to your work at hand. Same with C.
primitur 14y ago
I've been a professional C developer for 30 years. I've written C in practically all spheres of application - in embedded firmware, drivers/OS stack, userspace, web, &etc. These days, I'm not writing so much C, but more heavily depending on the deep understanding I have of how various layers of the whole stack of a computer, running an application, work. How C works, what a compiler is doing with C code, how to write good (and bad) C code .. all of this is a deep skill, still applicable to understanding and debugging at the OS and Application level. The reason to learn C is this: there are a lot of components of the modern stack that are still composed of it. If you learn C, and know C, and can comfortably produce reliable, rock-solid, working systems around a C framework, then you will have exercised an ability that is, naturally, broadly applicable throughout the computer world. That is not to say that you should not make C your main language; moreso, use other more advanced, more tailored languages as you see fit. But if you're going to exercise the ability to freely shift over the whole stack, C is going to be a mightier tool than most. Re: giving K&R to newbies: it should be, give K&R plus "Expert C Programming - Deep C Secrets" to newbies, and professionals alike. Together, those two easy to read books will help you gain a fast grasp of how to write C programs, why to write them in certain ways, and so on. I find K&R a great reference, but Deep C Secrets a rather fun read; only have the latter on the crapper shelf in the bathroom, for example. Plus, I never get DeepCSecrets back when I loan it to fellow coders (ever), so I have a few extra copies, too, to give to newbies I work with. See: (http://books.google.at/books/about/Expert_C_Programming.html?id=4vm2xK3yn34C&redir_esc=y http://books.google.at/books/about/Expert_C_Programming.html...) If you are learning C, and haven't heard of cscope, you can do no better than get it set up, do the tutorial, learn how to use it as a tool. cscope is a very capable text-based navigation/browsing tool, for large C code bases. Unpack your favourite F/OSS application, fire up cscope on the root dir, search for main, build a key word list, navigate freely. Bonus points: it has superlative vim integration. See: (http://cscope.sourceforge.net/ http://cscope.sourceforge.net/) & (http://cscope.sourceforge.net/cscope_vim_tutorial.html http://cscope.sourceforge.net/cscope_vim_tutorial.html) C will not fail you when most other languages might. There are times you may realize, in fact, you are doing things that would be easier in C, off in Java and Haskell and Ruby land, ad&infinitum.. One last really, really good reason to learn C: Lua. Lua kicks ass. Why? Because you can glom Lua into any C code base, and give yourself a much comfier language to do business/game/architecture code in, while still having a fairly large degree of raw control over the C runtime power, to boot. Master putting Lua into a small C lib collection, and you'll see what I mean. Learning to add Lua to a big code-base is like .. somehow .. a final 'delivery' of the whole 'write code once, run it everywhere' promise, albeit its a developer mantra, not some CorporateOS-decides-to-bundle-your-interpreter/runtime issue. Anyway, just my two cents worth. Hope I still see new C coders being made in a few more decades, eh ..
groovy2shoes 14y ago
> Kernighan and Richie's The C Programming Language is one > of most popular, if not the most popular, programming books, > and it defined the ANSI standard. Wait, what? ANSI defined the ANSI standard, which had quite a few additions from K&R C. It'd be more proper to say that the book defined C itself before the publication of the standard.

Why learn C?

92 points by Garbage 14y ago

beehave 14y ago

1. To build new operating systems. 2. To modify existing ones. 3. It's easier to write than assembly language.

deadwait 14y ago

the subtitles on the interview are just amazing

zxcdw 14y ago

I think C++ has greatly made C obsolete in many fields, I'd rather see people embracing C++ than C when it comes to learning and using either. For example almost everything C teaches about "low-level" and "how things work" is learned by C++ too, while giving possibility to remain at higher level of abstraction most of the time - if so desired.

shin_lao 14y ago
C++ is awesome, no doubt about it. However it's a superset of C and the entry cost is much, much higher. Learning C is good for your culture, learning C++ is useful only if you plan on using it.
- jaredsohn 14y ago
  >However it's a superset of C This isn't 100% true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#With_C http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B#With_C
16s 14y ago
gcc itself is switching to C++ by default in 4.8. Source: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-04/msg00054.html http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2012-04/msg00054.html
- splicer 14y ago
  What the hell is g++ for? This is a stupid idea IMO.
  - cygx 14y ago
    The post is about building GCC itself with a C++ compiler, which is already possible on most(?) platforms: Basically, the default of the --enable-build-with-cxx configuration option will change, which does not affect the default input language of the gcc executable (which is chosen by file extension anyway).
    - splicer 14y ago
      Ah, okay. That I'm fine with. :)
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    For compiling C++ code. Which gcc will start using. This is just a way to make compiling gcc take 20 times longer.
raverbashing 14y ago
Agree but kinda Disagree C++ is built on C. You need to know C (but maybe not the C library) to know C++. Like pointers
- ginko 14y ago
  I think that in order to be proficient in C++, you also need to understand what separates C++ from C and how C++'s features (classes, overloaded functions, templates) map to C.
- 16s 14y ago
  "Built on C" seems like the wrong phrase to me. "Extension of C" is a better fit.
- pjmlp 14y ago
  > You need to know C Learning C before C++ is a very bad idea, as it will make you try to use language patterns that are considered bad ideas in C++, as there are safer alternatives.
sparkie 14y ago
The majority of good, and reusable code is in libraries - as it should be. If you write a library in C++, you're limiting potential users of said library to only using C++, because there's no ABI compatibility with other languages. C on the other hand, has almost global compatibility with other general purpose languages. It should therefore be everyone's effort to write good C libraries and promote code reuse. Of course, there's no harm in writing your library in C++ and exposing a C interface to it - but that's not necessarily as simple as it might sound. The better approach is to design your API in C and then figure out how to implement it in C++. As for writing the actual applications (non-reusable part), there are obvious advantages to using C++ over C.

ginko 14y ago

C is the lingua franca of computing. Pretty much every programming language in existence has bindings to C.

Shivetya 14y ago
except all those written before it? I program on a mid range system. If I want to write in C for it I could but I have no reason too. I use two languages that appeared well before C and produce very effective and near bullet proof code because of it. There are some big names in the language world that were here before C and some probably had influence on that language. While I would not mind refreshing my C, having not had any use for it since 85, I am not even sure where to start.
- gms7777 14y ago
  > except all those written before it? Out of curiosity, what do you use? My history is not too great, but I can't think of many languages that came before C that are still in use today. I actually use fortran at work (along with C), and I'll give a pass to Lisp (it seems like c predates the dialects that are still in common use, ie common lisp and scheme), but it seems like most others (Pascal, COBOL, Basic) are more curiosities in the modern world. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
  - batista 14y ago
    Actually Cobol is pretty much everywhere in the substrate, but not in visible places... banks, insurance companies, and the like have tons of cobol code in use.
    - RodgerTheGreat 14y ago
      And if we count VBA, VB6 and VB.net as spiritual successors to BASIC there's an absolutely ungodly amount of new BASIC code in use and being written every day anywhere people use Excel. It's ugly, but it's a large part of how business is done.
- 14y ago

swa14 14y ago

Because when programming in any language, you can't rise above your own proficiency in C. That is my observation anyway. I think it has something to do with the deeper understanding of references and dereferencing, and the inner workings of languages in general.

kd0amg 14y ago
I think that may only hold when working with sufficiently C-like languages.
- dllthomas 14y ago
  In particular, I think that Lisp hackers of old put a solid lie to the claim.
recursive 14y ago
If I've never written any C, does that mean that I have no proficiency in any language?

fraughtwith 14y ago

There's so much C code in so many critical environments that this language is going to be around for much longer than anyone would like... It'll be the Latin of computing. There will be some poor soul studying and using C in a thousand years.

unimpressive 14y ago
> There will be some poor soul studying and using C in a thousand years. I would hope that by that time there will be powerful algorithms you can use to transcompile old C code into $LANGUAGE code. EDIT: Well actually I would hope by that time strong A.I has been invented and asking flesh and blood humans to write code will elicit some really strange looks.
- powerslave12r 14y ago
  That made me sadder than it should have.

quesera 14y ago

Because if you don't know C, you don't know what's actually happening when you write software. Because if you don't know C, you've only seen the map, not the territory. Because if you don't know C, you're looking at the finger, not the moon. Because if you don't know C, everything you think about computers is a leaky abstraction. The counterpoint is that flawed models are often good enough. Newton's theory of gravitation comes to mind. But if you like knowing what's going on, either for personal satisfaction, or because what you're working on is not fully encapsulated by a different language (inevitably, originally, written in C), then C is both interesting and useful.

zxcdw 14y ago
Comments like these seem to have the underlying idea that C somehow explains how things work. It doesn't. It doesn't explain at all. It's only an abstraction among the others - granted, it's a lower level abstraction. To understand how a computer works when it executes a program, accesses some data, writes to a disk, spawns a process and forks it, then kills the child after a certain interrupt can pretty much only be learned by learning assembly and some hardware and OS-related literature. Of course, for most programmers(let alone people in general) this is nearly useless information today. It's obsolete. And that's good. But what C teaches you about how "things are under the hood", is just a leaky abstraction. C doesn't care about such low-level things because they are implementation details. Standard C could be ran by pen and paper just as well as on a computer. It's a "black box". Takes input and produces output according to the standard. Frankly, the only "low-level" thing C has over e.g. Java is that most domains in which C is used are working close to the hardware and it runs on "the real hard machine". With C, in it's modern domains, you are exposed to these "low-level" details, not because of C, but because of the domain. With many other languages the user doesn't have to deal with such problems because of the problem domain is different.
- eliben 14y ago
  Of course C doesn't "explain" how things work. C is a language, it doesn't explain anything. However, when you write and read real-life C code, you have a chance to learn how software works under the hood much better than with higher-level languages. The low-level rigid type system makes you see how data structures are really laid out. Pointers and direct memory addressing makes you realize how memory is really managed, the real meaning of passing things by value and by reference, and many more things.

noonespecial 14y ago

Yes, C is just another arbitrary abstraction layer among many others, but it occupies a special position in modern computing. C is the lowest abstraction layer that compiles on the most hardware. "Where the falling angel meets the rising ape", as it were.

tjr 14y ago

If you're interested only in learning about lower levels of the computer, and don't need to actually write at lower levels, it may be better to learn, say, MMIX. But lots of people do need to learn C. They might not be working on hip new social web services, but they're out there. In my work, I have observed recent computer science graduates filter in and get assigned to program embedded systems using C. Their knowledge of C was minimal. Their code tended to be suboptimal, or even bizarre to the point of, I wasn't sure why it compiled. I recommended they get a copy of K&R. They did. I don't think they got much out of it. I don't blame them personally. They simply had not been taught C in school, and had never had a reason to learn it before. Trying to learn it on the job with antiquated books didn't seem to work very well. (Though some did eventually come to learn C well. Others migrated to different assignments not involving C.) Whatever your reason for wanting to learn C, be it purely academic, or if you actually need to program with it, fresh, modern educational resources are a good thing.

mike-cardwell 14y ago

I've been programming Perl for going on ten years, I know a bit of Java as well, and have spent the last 4 or 5 years learning a lot about web development. I even recently learned nodejs and coffeescript to a pretty decent level and released https://emailprivacytester.com/ https://emailprivacytester.com/ using it. I just started to learn C and C++ about a week ago. I did a module of it at University many years ago, but I never kept it up afterwards and forgot nearly all of it. Anyway, I am completely loving learning it at the moment. It just feels like I have so much more control of what I'm doing, and I can't wait to build and release my first non-trivial application using it. I want to know C well. Mostly, I just want to be able to confidently hack on the massive amount of software that has been written in C over the years. [edit] I've always had this feeling in the back of my mind, that no matter how good I am at Perl or JavaScript or HTML or Java, I will never feel like an "expert" until I am good at C.

eric_bullington 14y ago
Coming from a web development and Python background, and starting to really learn C about a year ago, I know the exact feeling you're talking about. As many cool Python programs I had written, I just didn't feel like it was a "real" program until I programmed and compiled an application in C. And I love how C has made my Python so much more powerful, both through ctypes and Cython. Finally, C was the gateway to Lua, which I'm now enthralled with: a tiny, extraordinarily fast and flexible scripting language that is easily compiled into a C program, thus giving me that single-file binary executable I cherish so much. I know I could do the same with Python, but LuaJIT is just so easy to embed, and yet so incredibly fast. Learning C has opened a lot of doors.
- primitur 14y ago
  I just want to check in with you: I too am in the midst of a total love affair with Lua/LuaJIT. That one little VM has really turned into something amazing. And now, the ways it is used!!! Phenomenal.
  - eric_bullington 14y ago

tosseraccount 14y ago

Well. Think about it. Probably 95% of the instructions executed on your computer were generated by a C compiler or inlined withing a C program. Check out how many of your programs are linked to a standard or special C library. Perl, bash, Python etc. are written in C. Most libraries are written in C.Throw in what's basically C programming in Objective C and C++ and we're closer to 99%

Apocryphon 14y ago
If C++ counts, does Java/C# count as well? If so then we'd definitely hit around 99%
- tosseraccount 14y ago
  No. C++ is a superset of C. You can write C and jam it into a C++ program. This happens often enough in C++ programs. Java absolutely does count. The Sun JVM was written in C !!! So, yes, every java program is executing instructions generated by a C program.
  - kqr2 14y ago
    Some JVMs are actually self-hosting: http://jikesrvm.org/ http://jikesrvm.org/ A distinguishing characteristic of Jikes RVM is that it is implemented in the Java™ programming language and is self-hosted i.e., its Java code runs on itself without requiring a second virtual machine. Most other virtual machines for the Java platform are written in native code (typically, C or C++). A Java implementation provides ease of portability, and a seamless integration of virtual machine and application resources such as objects, threads, and operating-system interfaces.

dsirijus 14y ago

I've recently started relearning my C skill, since I've had not touch it in almost a decade. I'm combining LCTHW, K&R and Sedgewick's Algorithms in C series in the process. I have not had so much fun programming since high school. The general feeling of increased brainpower lurks with me these days mostly because of it.

jetsnoc 14y ago

I think learning many different kinds of languages is important. The breadth of experience makes you a better programmer as a whole. During the trial and sampling of many languages you will fall in love with one. Stick with that one! Your job should be fun. Each person has different learning modalities and concepts they just "get" that are congruent with how they think so no one language is perfect for everyone. But, why learn C? Learn C to broaden your experience and gain a marketable skill in the most popular programming language[1]. You don't have to become an expert in it but I think everyone should dabble in it a little bit! 1: TIOBE index, June 2012

primitur 14y ago
>I think learning many different kinds of languages is important. I agree with you, 100%. There are no ultimate languages. You have a broad field, as a developer, of words to use - choose the one you a) get along with, b) can comfortably use, c) and are interested in actually using for something. What I have observed is that good developers learn other languages faster, the more they do it, i.e. if you set your goal higher, you get better at it each time you iterate. I tend to think, as a generality, that eventually there is a point for each individual developer where the effort to learn some new language/codebase/taxonomy gets flatter and flatter, to the point that there are no 'easier nor harder' levels of it any more. C is still very, very useful. $35 worth of pocketable computing power and a built-in C compiler can still deliver kick-ass results.

andrewgu 14y ago

This quote is the most important out of the whole bunch: "It's an important, foundational language that requires you to understand the full stack of the technology. If you learn C, you'll understand computers at a much more profound level than if you don't." We should be careful about the word "learn." I read it as "understand C and master C," not simply being able to write C code. Why read Shakespeare when you're learning to write? Why study Bach when you're playing jazz? You can definitely skip Shakespeare and Bach, but I think it's universally acknowledged that studying their work gives you important foundational knowledge even if they don't apply directly to your work at hand. Same with C.

primitur 14y ago

I've been a professional C developer for 30 years. I've written C in practically all spheres of application - in embedded firmware, drivers/OS stack, userspace, web, &etc. These days, I'm not writing so much C, but more heavily depending on the deep understanding I have of how various layers of the whole stack of a computer, running an application, work. How C works, what a compiler is doing with C code, how to write good (and bad) C code .. all of this is a deep skill, still applicable to understanding and debugging at the OS and Application level. The reason to learn C is this: there are a lot of components of the modern stack that are still composed of it. If you learn C, and know C, and can comfortably produce reliable, rock-solid, working systems around a C framework, then you will have exercised an ability that is, naturally, broadly applicable throughout the computer world. That is not to say that you should not make C your main language; moreso, use other more advanced, more tailored languages as you see fit. But if you're going to exercise the ability to freely shift over the whole stack, C is going to be a mightier tool than most. Re: giving K&R to newbies: it should be, give K&R plus "Expert C Programming - Deep C Secrets" to newbies, and professionals alike. Together, those two easy to read books will help you gain a fast grasp of how to write C programs, why to write them in certain ways, and so on. I find K&R a great reference, but Deep C Secrets a rather fun read; only have the latter on the crapper shelf in the bathroom, for example. Plus, I never get DeepCSecrets back when I loan it to fellow coders (ever), so I have a few extra copies, too, to give to newbies I work with. See: (http://books.google.at/books/about/Expert_C_Programming.html?id=4vm2xK3yn34C&redir_esc=y http://books.google.at/books/about/Expert_C_Programming.html...) If you are learning C, and haven't heard of cscope, you can do no better than get it set up, do the tutorial, learn how to use it as a tool. cscope is a very capable text-based navigation/browsing tool, for large C code bases. Unpack your favourite F/OSS application, fire up cscope on the root dir, search for main, build a key word list, navigate freely. Bonus points: it has superlative vim integration. See: (http://cscope.sourceforge.net/ http://cscope.sourceforge.net/) & (http://cscope.sourceforge.net/cscope_vim_tutorial.html http://cscope.sourceforge.net/cscope_vim_tutorial.html) C will not fail you when most other languages might. There are times you may realize, in fact, you are doing things that would be easier in C, off in Java and Haskell and Ruby land, ad&infinitum.. One last really, really good reason to learn C: Lua. Lua kicks ass. Why? Because you can glom Lua into any C code base, and give yourself a much comfier language to do business/game/architecture code in, while still having a fairly large degree of raw control over the C runtime power, to boot. Master putting Lua into a small C lib collection, and you'll see what I mean. Learning to add Lua to a big code-base is like .. somehow .. a final 'delivery' of the whole 'write code once, run it everywhere' promise, albeit its a developer mantra, not some CorporateOS-decides-to-bundle-your-interpreter/runtime issue. Anyway, just my two cents worth. Hope I still see new C coders being made in a few more decades, eh ..

groovy2shoes 14y ago

> Kernighan and Richie's The C Programming Language is one > of most popular, if not the most popular, programming books, > and it defined the ANSI standard. Wait, what? ANSI defined the ANSI standard, which had quite a few additions from K&R C. It'd be more proper to say that the book defined C itself before the publication of the standard.