4 ms·

I think this whole Minitel story is fascinating and should be used as an example of why a free and open internet is always necessary. This shows what happens wh

by da_n 14y ago

I think this whole Minitel story is fascinating and should be used as an example of why a free and open internet is always necessary. This shows what happens when you have a locked-down, closed system controlled by private companies and government. There was no room to allow innovation, stagnating until the www put the nail into its coffin.

1gor 14y ago
I wonder if Facebook will be tomorrow's Minitel... But seriously, why some network system layers failed and others thrived? It is not protocol. Gopher was also TCP/IP based, and it has disappeared...
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  It's classic worse is better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html The web had a much, much faster "OODA" loop than competing platforms, and it had a much easier route to being more widely used. Sometimes we fail to see elegance because we see right through it.
- allardschip 14y ago
  I think you can safely say it is today's Minitel for many.
gaius 14y ago
But on the other hand, you do get all the benefits of the advanced technology 10 years before the rest of the world. It's easy to scoff now, but remember what Newton said about standing on the shoulders of giants. And remember that ARPAnet could easily have gone the same way, it was also a govt-backed project...
- arethuza 14y ago
  "govt-backed project" As was initial development of the Web - at least indirectly through CERN.
  - hollerith 14y ago
    Although I agree with your overall point that the early Web is essentially a creation of the government (and of individual programmers) and not of the free market, I disagree that CERN had anything important to do with the Web. The extent of CERN's sponsorship of the development of the Web was that Tim Berners-Lee obtained permission from his boss to work on it during work hours. His boss's main reason for giving the permission was that he wanted CERN to start evaluating NeXT, Inc, as one of CERN's suppliers, and development of this Web thing seemed just as good a test of NeXT's marketing claims about the excellence of its development environment as anything else. Probably the biggest way that CERN helped was by providing a good living for a relatively large population of potential early adopters of the Web. (Before the "discovery" of the internet by the mainstream media in 1993, adoption of the internet was almost completely by very-high-IQ folks.) ADDED. The much more important point, though, is the fact that when Tim BL started developing the Web, the Internet was a very fertile and welcoming environment for experimentation. If you are on Linux or Mac, take a look at /etc/services and realize each of the port numbers you see listed in that file is an experiment. (Note that most of the least successful experiments might not have made it into that file.) I tend to agree with those who say that if Tim BL hadn't invented the Web, it would not have taken long for someone else to invent something similar (something that allows owners of web sites to create experience on graphical UIs that are more compelling that the plain text that was dominant on the Internet till then). In discussions like this about which individuals and organizations caused an important technological development, it is important to keep in mind one's reasons for wanting to know. My reason for wanting to know how much of the Web and the Internet was caused by government is that it helps me decide how likely government-employed or government-funded individuals are to contribute to future important innovations.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      Cool - I started using it in late '92. :-)
      - hollerith 14y ago
        Me too :) I used HyTelnet to make my first visit to a web page. HyTelnet's gimmick was that you did not need to install a web client (browser) -- you could use the Telnet client you already had installed.
thibaut_barrere 14y ago
I don't know, really: the Minitel also brought tons of money to people who later, in turn, innovated or disrupted markets. Xavier Niel is the canonical example of that (the guy behind Free mobile/dsl).

by da_n 14y ago

1gor 14y ago

I wonder if Facebook will be tomorrow's Minitel... But seriously, why some network system layers failed and others thrived? It is not protocol. Gopher was also TCP/IP based, and it has disappeared...

InclinedPlane 14y ago
It's classic worse is better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html The web had a much, much faster "OODA" loop than competing platforms, and it had a much easier route to being more widely used. Sometimes we fail to see elegance because we see right through it.
allardschip 14y ago
I think you can safely say it is today's Minitel for many.

gaius 14y ago

But on the other hand, you do get all the benefits of the advanced technology 10 years before the rest of the world. It's easy to scoff now, but remember what Newton said about standing on the shoulders of giants. And remember that ARPAnet could easily have gone the same way, it was also a govt-backed project...

arethuza 14y ago
"govt-backed project" As was initial development of the Web - at least indirectly through CERN.
- hollerith 14y ago
  Although I agree with your overall point that the early Web is essentially a creation of the government (and of individual programmers) and not of the free market, I disagree that CERN had anything important to do with the Web. The extent of CERN's sponsorship of the development of the Web was that Tim Berners-Lee obtained permission from his boss to work on it during work hours. His boss's main reason for giving the permission was that he wanted CERN to start evaluating NeXT, Inc, as one of CERN's suppliers, and development of this Web thing seemed just as good a test of NeXT's marketing claims about the excellence of its development environment as anything else. Probably the biggest way that CERN helped was by providing a good living for a relatively large population of potential early adopters of the Web. (Before the "discovery" of the internet by the mainstream media in 1993, adoption of the internet was almost completely by very-high-IQ folks.) ADDED. The much more important point, though, is the fact that when Tim BL started developing the Web, the Internet was a very fertile and welcoming environment for experimentation. If you are on Linux or Mac, take a look at /etc/services and realize each of the port numbers you see listed in that file is an experiment. (Note that most of the least successful experiments might not have made it into that file.) I tend to agree with those who say that if Tim BL hadn't invented the Web, it would not have taken long for someone else to invent something similar (something that allows owners of web sites to create experience on graphical UIs that are more compelling that the plain text that was dominant on the Internet till then). In discussions like this about which individuals and organizations caused an important technological development, it is important to keep in mind one's reasons for wanting to know. My reason for wanting to know how much of the Web and the Internet was caused by government is that it helps me decide how likely government-employed or government-funded individuals are to contribute to future important innovations.
  - arethuza 14y ago
    Cool - I started using it in late '92. :-)
    - hollerith 14y ago
      Me too :) I used HyTelnet to make my first visit to a web page. HyTelnet's gimmick was that you did not need to install a web client (browser) -- you could use the Telnet client you already had installed.

thibaut_barrere 14y ago

I don't know, really: the Minitel also brought tons of money to people who later, in turn, innovated or disrupted markets. Xavier Niel is the canonical example of that (the guy behind Free mobile/dsl).