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> Even though in the early days you don't notice much physical difference People who do weight training always leave out the fact that you feel sore after a li

> Even though in the early days you don't notice much physical difference People who do weight training always leave out the fact that you feel sore after a lift. Even the next day. This can feel like pain to the unaware and can be scary or off putting enough to become a deterrent to keep at it. It can leave you feeling weak, but often the soreness is surface level and in fact you are still stronger even with the soreness and fatigue. > (other than the steady increase in weight you're able to lift) “Steady” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Maybe you could argue that in the beginning, but adding more and more weight is more logarithmic than linear; otherwise, everyone in the gym would be benching 3 tons. I recommend ramping up weight after you can do a full 3 sets of 10 reps at your current weight. Introducing the new weight to the first set, then dropping the weight for the next two. Once comfortable with that try the new weight for 2 sets and then finally 3; then repeat.

nottorp 2y ago
> People who do weight training always leave out the fact that you feel sore after a lift. Even the next day. It's absolutely normal to feel sore after any kind of exercise? If you don't you're in top shape for it, congratulations. But it ain't going to happen when progressing.
- uhngureff 2y ago
  > It's absolutely normal to feel sore after any kind of exercise? I Ctr-F’d the linked article and found 0 instances of “sore”. Assuming any knowledge is “obvious” is detrimental to education, encouragement, mentorship, or simply cultivating a welcoming environment.
- voisin 2y ago
  Some might argue that if you don’t feel sore at all you haven’t pushed yourself enough, and if you feel so sore it takes days and days to recover then you pushed yourself too hard. Finding the sweet spot is important. And I think this applies to strength as well as running and other exercise.
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    In my experience it's an indicator if I'm doing something enough or not. If I regularly perform an exercise it won't cause soreness. Squat 3x a week, one of those sessions being heavy? No soreness. Squat once a week? Definitely getting DOMS afterwards. Same with running. If get sore after a run I probably took time off before it.
    - voisin 2y ago
      I’ve been doing StrongLifts consistently since Jan 1 and so 3x per week I am doing squats. I still feel soreness despite 3x per week because the weights are semi-consistently increasing. So I think to modify what you are saying, I think frequency is one vector, but another is volume. Or maybe I am still just a beginner and eventually I’ll be able to lift increasingly heavy weights week over week without any soreness!
      - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        Interesting. I was lifting for nearly ten years, did starting strength, texas method, 5/3/1, and I found that the soreness largely went away unless there was a marked change in intensity or program.
        cthalupa 2y ago
        This has been my experience with a sustained period over years of lifting in my early to mid 20s and several periods of restarting since then. Even when regularly adding weight, after a few months I stopped being particularly sore. I could still feel that I had worked out the day before, sure, but as long as I was getting enough protein, getting enough sleep, doing warm up sets, etc., the soreness was incredibly minimal. Missing any of those things could cause a pretty significant increase in feeling it the next day, though.
- joncrocks 2y ago
  It's worth noting that some soreness may not be immediate, but delayed. People call this Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS), and can come on ~24-48h after a given exercise. It's not sudden, but can feel that way sometimes when you wake up!
adammarples 2y ago
It's pretty linear at first, especially like this person who has been doing it a few months. You should be able to add 2.5kg to your major lifts every week if you're recovering well, and that's recommended by the starting strength program. It definitely starts to become logarithmic after while though.
- uhngureff 2y ago
  This is bad advice, because it’s ambiguous. > You should be able to add 2.5kg to your major lifts every week When you couple progression with a time frame but fail to address the time frame of the workouts it is more dangerous than helpful. This would be bad advice for anyone who only trains once a week or twice a month. > if you're recovering well I’ve been strength training for 20 years and even I’m unsure what this means. Do I recover “well”? When it comes to education avoiding ambiguity is essential.
  - akoboldfrying 2y ago
    If someone doesn't mention a detail, assume they meant "whatever is standard". All beginner strength training programs recommend 3x per week, do they not? >> if you're recovering well > > I’ve been strength training for 20 years and even I’m unsure what this means. Recovery in strength training means eating, sleeping and resting worked muscles for at least a day (i.e., don't work the same muscle on consecutive days). I think it's safe to assume they meant "if you're eating and sleeping well, and resting muscles appropriately".
    - uhngureff 2y ago
      > "whatever is standard" Okay, but only if we agree on what is “standard”? My standard routine is every other day. (And that’s just my regularity, I’ve yet to even mention what lifts I do) Is that what both you and the op meant for your “standard”? Just read this thread. I’ve seen other people in this thread say “once a week” and “three to four time a week”, and “for 30 minutes”, and on and on. Let go of this assumption that anything is “standard” and simply explicitly state your own advice. It is more helpful. > Recovery in strength training means eating, sleeping and resting worked muscles for at least a day In truth when op said “recovering well” I thought they meant the autonomic side of things. Your interpretation of it being solely about my active efforts to recover being the definition of “recovering well” was completely lost on me; further making my point that the op was ambiguous. But all good advice on aiding recovery! I’d add, stay hydrated!
namaria 2y ago
I've found that small increases in weight and protein excess in diet help mitigate soreness a lot.
- uhngureff 2y ago
  Yes, and eat immediately after every workout. I’ve read studies that show via biopsy that ingested proteins are already present in the worked muscles 10 minutes after ingestion! I’ve also found in my own practice that using a hydrating powder in 32oz of water after a lift aids in recovery.
kiloshib 2y ago
>I recommend ramping up weight after you can do a full 3 sets of 10 reps at your current weight. This seems rather arbitrary as rep ranges will heavily depend on what type of exercises/routines a person is running. 3 sets of 10 reps doesn't really fit the bill for a strength training program. That is more of a "bodybuilding" routine focused on hypertrophy. "Strength" in weightlifting is measured by the one-rep max (1RM) [1] of a given movement. Most starting strength training programs recommend starting off with 5 reps. (For example, Starting Strength [2], Stronglifts 5x5 [3], or Wendler 5/3/1 [4] were common recommendations for beginner routines when I first started lifting). This is why most strength training programs focus on basic lifts like squat, bench/overhead press, and deadlift. Some of the intermediate programs will also use "linear periodization" [5] that (iirc) is supposed to help prevent plateaus as a trainee acclimates to their routine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum [2] https://startingstrength.com/about https://startingstrength.com/about [3] https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/ https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/ [4] https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101065094-5-3-1-for-a-beginner https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101065094-5-... [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637911/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637911/
- uhngureff 2y ago
  > "Strength" in weightlifting is measured by the one-rep max (1RM) [1] of a given movement. Most starting strength training programs recommend starting off with 5 reps. (For example, Starting Strength [2], Stronglifts 5x5 [3], or Wendler 5/3/1 [4] were common recommendations for beginner routines when I first started lifting). This feels like too much information to the point it confuses me. You gave 2 (3?) different pieces of actionable advice. I’ve always hated the 1 rep max mentality. Mostly saw it in high school with kids trying to out do each other, but it fails to promote strength. I’m all for going slow. If 5 reps are better for you then great, do 5!
  - kiloshib 2y ago
    Since strength is a measure of maximum force, then the 1RM is probably the best metric for judging strength. > I’ve always hated the 1 rep max mentality. Mostly saw it in high school with kids trying to out do each other, but it fails to promote strength. I agree. There is a difference between the mentality of high school lifters chasing a 1RM to impress people (often called "ego lifting") and the use of the 1RM as a baseline for measuring a person's strength for the purposes of developing a strength training regimen. The 1RM also takes into account comfort of the lift. If you feel like your spine is going to snap, but you complete the lift then the weight is probably too heavy, for example. Some lifters use the Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) as a heuristic for this [1]. [1] https://blog.nasm.org/rate-of-perceived-exertion https://blog.nasm.org/rate-of-perceived-exertion
nunez 2y ago
Rippetoe and Baker talk about this in Practical Programming for Strength Training. Heavily depends on the movement. 3x10s are fine for accessory exercises but will be too much volume for compound movements (if strength is the focus) and can actually retard progress in later stages (because training for strength is incredibly taxing once you go heavy enough). That said, literally anything will work when you're just getting started, so this retardation won't show up until later (when you're unbelievably sore all of the time but are not progressing on the lifts). Most strength programs are developed around 3x5 for the core lifts, as this is a good balance between strength and recovery. In fact, you will likely do even less than this once you're advanced enough (1x5 super heavy deadlifts, once a week, for example) so that your muscles have time to recover and build.
- uhngureffalt 2y ago
  I like the 3x5 y’all are touting. I’m an old man and 3x10 is “how I was taught” but I’m open to new research and see how 3x5 would be easier on someone new to it. But what y’all all seem to omit is the core of my suggestion: how and when to add more weight. Would you say the weight increase signal I suggest is good, just go 3x5 rather than 3x10, or what does your literature say on that?
  - mzhaase 2y ago
    First of all one should continue linear progression (adding weight every session) for as long as possible, by using microplates (125g increment). This is still the fastest way to progress. Once that does not work anymore, one leaves the novice phase by definition and is now considered "intermediate". Eric Helms wrote a metaanalysis of the current state of exercise science in "The muscle strength pyramid". In that, the recommended periodization for intermediate lifters is "wave loading". So one would do 3x8 at weight x, then 3x7 at x+5, 3x6 at x+10, 2x6 at x (DeLoad), then 3x8 at x+5. All sets performed at RPE < 10, meaning, one could do at least one more rep. The rep ranges and weights here should be modified to suit the goals at hand, so for deadlifts the increase may work, but for overhead press it should be lower. If training for strength the reps should also tend to be lower. Also, technique gets more important at higher training ages. It's worthwhile to drop the weight if it increases ROM or the stretch at the bottom, as it leads to more muscle growth this way.
tomp 2y ago
I only feel sore if I haven’t been working out regularly. After a week or two, the soreness is gone, for as long as I keep regular trainings. (I do strength training in the gym.)

nottorp 2y ago

> People who do weight training always leave out the fact that you feel sore after a lift. Even the next day. It's absolutely normal to feel sore after any kind of exercise? If you don't you're in top shape for it, congratulations. But it ain't going to happen when progressing.

uhngureff 2y ago
> It's absolutely normal to feel sore after any kind of exercise? I Ctr-F’d the linked article and found 0 instances of “sore”. Assuming any knowledge is “obvious” is detrimental to education, encouragement, mentorship, or simply cultivating a welcoming environment.
voisin 2y ago
Some might argue that if you don’t feel sore at all you haven’t pushed yourself enough, and if you feel so sore it takes days and days to recover then you pushed yourself too hard. Finding the sweet spot is important. And I think this applies to strength as well as running and other exercise.
- SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
  In my experience it's an indicator if I'm doing something enough or not. If I regularly perform an exercise it won't cause soreness. Squat 3x a week, one of those sessions being heavy? No soreness. Squat once a week? Definitely getting DOMS afterwards. Same with running. If get sore after a run I probably took time off before it.
  - voisin 2y ago
    I’ve been doing StrongLifts consistently since Jan 1 and so 3x per week I am doing squats. I still feel soreness despite 3x per week because the weights are semi-consistently increasing. So I think to modify what you are saying, I think frequency is one vector, but another is volume. Or maybe I am still just a beginner and eventually I’ll be able to lift increasingly heavy weights week over week without any soreness!
    - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
      Interesting. I was lifting for nearly ten years, did starting strength, texas method, 5/3/1, and I found that the soreness largely went away unless there was a marked change in intensity or program.
      - cthalupa 2y ago
        This has been my experience with a sustained period over years of lifting in my early to mid 20s and several periods of restarting since then. Even when regularly adding weight, after a few months I stopped being particularly sore. I could still feel that I had worked out the day before, sure, but as long as I was getting enough protein, getting enough sleep, doing warm up sets, etc., the soreness was incredibly minimal. Missing any of those things could cause a pretty significant increase in feeling it the next day, though.
joncrocks 2y ago
It's worth noting that some soreness may not be immediate, but delayed. People call this Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS), and can come on ~24-48h after a given exercise. It's not sudden, but can feel that way sometimes when you wake up!

adammarples 2y ago

It's pretty linear at first, especially like this person who has been doing it a few months. You should be able to add 2.5kg to your major lifts every week if you're recovering well, and that's recommended by the starting strength program. It definitely starts to become logarithmic after while though.

uhngureff 2y ago
This is bad advice, because it’s ambiguous. > You should be able to add 2.5kg to your major lifts every week When you couple progression with a time frame but fail to address the time frame of the workouts it is more dangerous than helpful. This would be bad advice for anyone who only trains once a week or twice a month. > if you're recovering well I’ve been strength training for 20 years and even I’m unsure what this means. Do I recover “well”? When it comes to education avoiding ambiguity is essential.
- akoboldfrying 2y ago
  If someone doesn't mention a detail, assume they meant "whatever is standard". All beginner strength training programs recommend 3x per week, do they not? >> if you're recovering well > > I’ve been strength training for 20 years and even I’m unsure what this means. Recovery in strength training means eating, sleeping and resting worked muscles for at least a day (i.e., don't work the same muscle on consecutive days). I think it's safe to assume they meant "if you're eating and sleeping well, and resting muscles appropriately".
  - uhngureff 2y ago
    > "whatever is standard" Okay, but only if we agree on what is “standard”? My standard routine is every other day. (And that’s just my regularity, I’ve yet to even mention what lifts I do) Is that what both you and the op meant for your “standard”? Just read this thread. I’ve seen other people in this thread say “once a week” and “three to four time a week”, and “for 30 minutes”, and on and on. Let go of this assumption that anything is “standard” and simply explicitly state your own advice. It is more helpful. > Recovery in strength training means eating, sleeping and resting worked muscles for at least a day In truth when op said “recovering well” I thought they meant the autonomic side of things. Your interpretation of it being solely about my active efforts to recover being the definition of “recovering well” was completely lost on me; further making my point that the op was ambiguous. But all good advice on aiding recovery! I’d add, stay hydrated!

namaria 2y ago

I've found that small increases in weight and protein excess in diet help mitigate soreness a lot.

uhngureff 2y ago
Yes, and eat immediately after every workout. I’ve read studies that show via biopsy that ingested proteins are already present in the worked muscles 10 minutes after ingestion! I’ve also found in my own practice that using a hydrating powder in 32oz of water after a lift aids in recovery.

kiloshib 2y ago

>I recommend ramping up weight after you can do a full 3 sets of 10 reps at your current weight. This seems rather arbitrary as rep ranges will heavily depend on what type of exercises/routines a person is running. 3 sets of 10 reps doesn't really fit the bill for a strength training program. That is more of a "bodybuilding" routine focused on hypertrophy. "Strength" in weightlifting is measured by the one-rep max (1RM) [1] of a given movement. Most starting strength training programs recommend starting off with 5 reps. (For example, Starting Strength [2], Stronglifts 5x5 [3], or Wendler 5/3/1 [4] were common recommendations for beginner routines when I first started lifting). This is why most strength training programs focus on basic lifts like squat, bench/overhead press, and deadlift. Some of the intermediate programs will also use "linear periodization" [5] that (iirc) is supposed to help prevent plateaus as a trainee acclimates to their routine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-repetition_maximum [2] https://startingstrength.com/about https://startingstrength.com/about [3] https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/ https://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5/progress/ [4] https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101065094-5-3-1-for-a-beginner https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101065094-5-... [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637911/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4637911/

uhngureff 2y ago
> "Strength" in weightlifting is measured by the one-rep max (1RM) [1] of a given movement. Most starting strength training programs recommend starting off with 5 reps. (For example, Starting Strength [2], Stronglifts 5x5 [3], or Wendler 5/3/1 [4] were common recommendations for beginner routines when I first started lifting). This feels like too much information to the point it confuses me. You gave 2 (3?) different pieces of actionable advice. I’ve always hated the 1 rep max mentality. Mostly saw it in high school with kids trying to out do each other, but it fails to promote strength. I’m all for going slow. If 5 reps are better for you then great, do 5!
- kiloshib 2y ago
  Since strength is a measure of maximum force, then the 1RM is probably the best metric for judging strength. > I’ve always hated the 1 rep max mentality. Mostly saw it in high school with kids trying to out do each other, but it fails to promote strength. I agree. There is a difference between the mentality of high school lifters chasing a 1RM to impress people (often called "ego lifting") and the use of the 1RM as a baseline for measuring a person's strength for the purposes of developing a strength training regimen. The 1RM also takes into account comfort of the lift. If you feel like your spine is going to snap, but you complete the lift then the weight is probably too heavy, for example. Some lifters use the Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) as a heuristic for this [1]. [1] https://blog.nasm.org/rate-of-perceived-exertion https://blog.nasm.org/rate-of-perceived-exertion

nunez 2y ago

Rippetoe and Baker talk about this in Practical Programming for Strength Training. Heavily depends on the movement. 3x10s are fine for accessory exercises but will be too much volume for compound movements (if strength is the focus) and can actually retard progress in later stages (because training for strength is incredibly taxing once you go heavy enough). That said, literally anything will work when you're just getting started, so this retardation won't show up until later (when you're unbelievably sore all of the time but are not progressing on the lifts). Most strength programs are developed around 3x5 for the core lifts, as this is a good balance between strength and recovery. In fact, you will likely do even less than this once you're advanced enough (1x5 super heavy deadlifts, once a week, for example) so that your muscles have time to recover and build.

uhngureffalt 2y ago
I like the 3x5 y’all are touting. I’m an old man and 3x10 is “how I was taught” but I’m open to new research and see how 3x5 would be easier on someone new to it. But what y’all all seem to omit is the core of my suggestion: how and when to add more weight. Would you say the weight increase signal I suggest is good, just go 3x5 rather than 3x10, or what does your literature say on that?
- mzhaase 2y ago
  First of all one should continue linear progression (adding weight every session) for as long as possible, by using microplates (125g increment). This is still the fastest way to progress. Once that does not work anymore, one leaves the novice phase by definition and is now considered "intermediate". Eric Helms wrote a metaanalysis of the current state of exercise science in "The muscle strength pyramid". In that, the recommended periodization for intermediate lifters is "wave loading". So one would do 3x8 at weight x, then 3x7 at x+5, 3x6 at x+10, 2x6 at x (DeLoad), then 3x8 at x+5. All sets performed at RPE < 10, meaning, one could do at least one more rep. The rep ranges and weights here should be modified to suit the goals at hand, so for deadlifts the increase may work, but for overhead press it should be lower. If training for strength the reps should also tend to be lower. Also, technique gets more important at higher training ages. It's worthwhile to drop the weight if it increases ROM or the stretch at the bottom, as it leads to more muscle growth this way.

tomp 2y ago

I only feel sore if I haven’t been working out regularly. After a week or two, the soreness is gone, for as long as I keep regular trainings. (I do strength training in the gym.)