6 ms·

Tips should not exist.

by junaru 2y ago

nelsonic 2y ago
@junaru have you worked in the service industry? Are you suggesting that people who work in areas where tips are common should just be paid more by their employers? 100% Agree that people should just be paid more. But it's not that simple ... Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars. And the people who suffer from inflation are the minimum wage earners who spend proportionally more of their disposable income on essentials like groceries. I worked as a waiter/bartender for 3 years in college and the wages were terrible! But I always made an effort and customers gave me tips. Saved those tips to buy my first iMac which I used to learn higher-paying skills. Having been a service industry worker and now in a different income bracket I always tip for good service. Without tips many people in the service sector could not get by.
- hypeatei 2y ago
  How is it going to have an inflationary effect when workers are already making that money? I don't really see how increasing menu prices or adding an automatic 12%-15% on the bill to avoid playing games afterwards with the receipt is a bad thing.
  - nelsonic 2y ago
    If costs rise, prices have to rise to maintain margins. Textbook definition of Inflation. If there's 15-20% (discretionary) added to the bill, it's not perceived as the price but rather as a "thank you" for taking care of us during our experience. Again, I don't like this system; and would welcome a viable alternative!
- redserk 2y ago
  How are tips immune from the inflationary effect you’re describing? If a government mandates a higher wage or if 90% of a society voluntarily contributes tips, the effect is the same. At the end of the day, the customer is likely paying an increased amount for a service being rendered. Except a mandatory wage increase may have the business reduce their margins while a tip puts the pressure directly on patrons. I did tipped service work. It’s time to discourage general adoption.
- vr46 2y ago
  Does it really make sense that 20% of the entire turnover of business shouldn't go through the business? Is good service only available to those who tip? Why are there so many hidden costs in American pricing? Why can't everything be upfront and honest and transparent? Whose responsibility is the welfare of the staff? Why do only waitstaff get the tips when the less-visible staff also contribute to good service?
- A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
  > Without tips many people in the service sector could not get by. I don't think that's necessarily true. In Japan tipping is a faux pas, and in fact restaurants will often return or refuse to accept them, yet the service sector is massive and the quality of service tends to be extraordinary. Much of Europe is similar, especially in eastern and southern parts. In China tipping is just not done... How is it that they all get by, but the US service sector can't?
  - nelsonic 2y ago
    Indeed, people working in services in Japan people are paid significantly better than in the US/UK so tips aren't required. Also the culture is totally different and I prefer it that way too. But using Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan": https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/5cnmy8/cheating_culture_in_japan/?rdt=64452 https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/5cnmy8/cheating_cult... would that work in US/UK? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (hint: no!)
    - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
      > people working in services in Japan people are paid significantly better than in the US/UK lol, no. They're paid less, on average. https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/waiter-waitress/japan https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/waiter-waitress/japan https://www.talent.com/salary?job=waiter https://www.talent.com/salary?job=waiter At worst, it's comparable. You could make a complicated argument that costs of living in Japan are lower so on pseudo-PPP terms they're paid better, but this is by no means clear. > Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan" The red herring is raising totally unrelated behavior from a Reddit post. In truth, most of Asia's tipping culture is much like Japan's. China's 1.4B denizens don't tip. I'm in Croatia and nobody tips here, either. It's only expected of tourists.
      - nelsonic 2y ago
        And the OP is related to the UK where tipping is normal and often expected.
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- tetromino_ 2y ago
  > Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars. And the people who suffer from inflation are the minimum wage earners who spend proportionally more of their disposable income on essentials like groceries. I don't understand why you are conflating inflation of sit-down restaurant and bar prices (which doesn't affect poor people) and inflation of grocery prices (which does). You don't tip at checkout at a grocery store or a liquor store.
- iicc 2y ago
  >Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars That implies consumers spend differently if they know the actual cost ahead of time, otherwise service inclusive pricing would make no difference. ie the whole industry is exploiting anchoring effects. Removing anchoring effects would make restaurant businesses less profitable, and consequently the properties that host them less valuable, so lower rents. There are clear incentives for pushing an inflation narrative.
trashtester 2y ago
Banning tips in the hospitality sector would be a bit like banning stock options or similar equity incentives in the tech sector (and startups in particular). Having to replace such performance/luck based incentives with fixed salaries would make a lot of business unviable, and restrict growth and innovation. Furthermore, the current workforce in places where such compensation is common will often have self selected for the kind of people who prefer this model (due to the potential upside, excitement, feeling of purpose, etc) over the safety of a fixed salary. So banning tipping in such markets tend to have a similar reaction as would forcing such incentive models on markets where people are used to a fixed salary.
- djtango 2y ago
  And yet when I went to Germany, China and Japan service staff did their jobs with a sense of pride and didn't chase for tips. In many places in Asia I've had tips outright refused. And yet the tiny check in lady in Tokyo airport came from behind her desk to lift my suitcase onto the scales.
  - trashtester 2y ago
    Different places have different cultures. I see no problem with that.
- arghwhat 2y ago
  Stock options is also a very American tech thing, and mainly provided by US tech companies in the EU. Peformance bonuses paid by the employer when you reach targets set by them is somewhat common and could be used in hospitality too. However, the majority of jobs do not have such performance incentives other than keeping your job if you keep up your end of the bargain, and possibly getting promoted to a higher role if you show certain skills. The hospitality sector does not have to differ.
  - ml_basics 2y ago
    And American tech companies have been substantially more successful that European tech companies so maybe it does actually make sense to have stock options as part of compensation rather than employer bonuses?

Tips should not exist.

by junaru 2y ago

Tips should not exist.

@junaru have you worked in the service industry? Are you suggesting that people who work in areas where tips are common should just be paid more by their employers? 100% Agree that people should just be paid more. But it's not that simple ... Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars. And the people who suffer from inflation are the minimum wage earners who spend proportionally more of their disposable income on essentials like groceries. I worked as a waiter/bartender for 3 years in college and the wages were terrible! But I always made an effort and customers gave me tips. Saved those tips to buy my first iMac which I used to learn higher-paying skills. Having been a service industry worker and now in a different income bracket I always tip for good service. Without tips many people in the service sector could not get by.

hypeatei 2y ago
How is it going to have an inflationary effect when workers are already making that money? I don't really see how increasing menu prices or adding an automatic 12%-15% on the bill to avoid playing games afterwards with the receipt is a bad thing.
- nelsonic 2y ago
  If costs rise, prices have to rise to maintain margins. Textbook definition of Inflation. If there's 15-20% (discretionary) added to the bill, it's not perceived as the price but rather as a "thank you" for taking care of us during our experience. Again, I don't like this system; and would welcome a viable alternative!
redserk 2y ago
How are tips immune from the inflationary effect you’re describing? If a government mandates a higher wage or if 90% of a society voluntarily contributes tips, the effect is the same. At the end of the day, the customer is likely paying an increased amount for a service being rendered. Except a mandatory wage increase may have the business reduce their margins while a tip puts the pressure directly on patrons. I did tipped service work. It’s time to discourage general adoption.
vr46 2y ago
Does it really make sense that 20% of the entire turnover of business shouldn't go through the business? Is good service only available to those who tip? Why are there so many hidden costs in American pricing? Why can't everything be upfront and honest and transparent? Whose responsibility is the welfare of the staff? Why do only waitstaff get the tips when the less-visible staff also contribute to good service?
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
> Without tips many people in the service sector could not get by. I don't think that's necessarily true. In Japan tipping is a faux pas, and in fact restaurants will often return or refuse to accept them, yet the service sector is massive and the quality of service tends to be extraordinary. Much of Europe is similar, especially in eastern and southern parts. In China tipping is just not done... How is it that they all get by, but the US service sector can't?
- nelsonic 2y ago
  Indeed, people working in services in Japan people are paid significantly better than in the US/UK so tips aren't required. Also the culture is totally different and I prefer it that way too. But using Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan": https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/5cnmy8/cheating_culture_in_japan/?rdt=64452 https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/5cnmy8/cheating_cult... would that work in US/UK? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (hint: no!)
  - A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
    > people working in services in Japan people are paid significantly better than in the US/UK lol, no. They're paid less, on average. https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/waiter-waitress/japan https://www.erieri.com/salary/job/waiter-waitress/japan https://www.talent.com/salary?job=waiter https://www.talent.com/salary?job=waiter At worst, it's comparable. You could make a complicated argument that costs of living in Japan are lower so on pseudo-PPP terms they're paid better, but this is by no means clear. > Japan as an example for this is like a red herring. The US/UK is not Japan. Just lookup "Cheating culture in Japan" The red herring is raising totally unrelated behavior from a Reddit post. In truth, most of Asia's tipping culture is much like Japan's. China's 1.4B denizens don't tip. I'm in Croatia and nobody tips here, either. It's only expected of tourists.
    - nelsonic 2y ago
      And the OP is related to the UK where tipping is normal and often expected.
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tetromino_ 2y ago
> Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars. And the people who suffer from inflation are the minimum wage earners who spend proportionally more of their disposable income on essentials like groceries. I don't understand why you are conflating inflation of sit-down restaurant and bar prices (which doesn't affect poor people) and inflation of grocery prices (which does). You don't tip at checkout at a grocery store or a liquor store.
iicc 2y ago
>Raising wages has an inflationary effect on the prices in the restaurants/bars That implies consumers spend differently if they know the actual cost ahead of time, otherwise service inclusive pricing would make no difference. ie the whole industry is exploiting anchoring effects. Removing anchoring effects would make restaurant businesses less profitable, and consequently the properties that host them less valuable, so lower rents. There are clear incentives for pushing an inflation narrative.

trashtester 2y ago

Banning tips in the hospitality sector would be a bit like banning stock options or similar equity incentives in the tech sector (and startups in particular). Having to replace such performance/luck based incentives with fixed salaries would make a lot of business unviable, and restrict growth and innovation. Furthermore, the current workforce in places where such compensation is common will often have self selected for the kind of people who prefer this model (due to the potential upside, excitement, feeling of purpose, etc) over the safety of a fixed salary. So banning tipping in such markets tend to have a similar reaction as would forcing such incentive models on markets where people are used to a fixed salary.

djtango 2y ago
And yet when I went to Germany, China and Japan service staff did their jobs with a sense of pride and didn't chase for tips. In many places in Asia I've had tips outright refused. And yet the tiny check in lady in Tokyo airport came from behind her desk to lift my suitcase onto the scales.
- trashtester 2y ago
  Different places have different cultures. I see no problem with that.
arghwhat 2y ago
Stock options is also a very American tech thing, and mainly provided by US tech companies in the EU. Peformance bonuses paid by the employer when you reach targets set by them is somewhat common and could be used in hospitality too. However, the majority of jobs do not have such performance incentives other than keeping your job if you keep up your end of the bargain, and possibly getting promoted to a higher role if you show certain skills. The hospitality sector does not have to differ.
- ml_basics 2y ago
  And American tech companies have been substantially more successful that European tech companies so maybe it does actually make sense to have stock options as part of compensation rather than employer bonuses?