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>The point of automation isn’t to have 0 longshoremen / dock workers. Many would argue otherwise. In reality, the result ends up being a massive reduction in

>The point of automation isn’t to have 0 longshoremen / dock workers. Many would argue otherwise. In reality, the result ends up being a massive reduction in the number of longshoremen / dock workers as they are replaced with robots. >The entire country benefits from not having each port union strategically prevent high throughput. Except the longshoremen, the dock workers, their families, the businesses around the docks and the communities where the (now unemployed) dock workers and their families live. The only people who think that these workers will simply move on to bigger and better things are those willfully ignoring the last 30 years of US history and the devastating effects that GATT, NAFTA and globalism in general have had on the working class. There will be those who will point to charts drawn by the pointy heads at the FED and in university classrooms showing that the "US economy" has grown greatly since the 1990s, completely oblivious to the fact that objective reality proves that those charts aren't worth the paper they are written on. Take a drive through Gary, Indiana or Flint, Michigan or a thousand other towns throughout the country that were supporting thriving, middle-class communities and are now burnt-out, depopulated husks. Tell the destitute people who live there (at least the few who are left) that in fact, NAFTA was great for the economy, and show them your chart.

thephyber 2y ago
> Many would argue otherwise. In reality, the result ends up being a massive reduction in the number of longshoremen / dock workers as they are replaced with robots. I’ll bite. How long does it take to automate all of the ports on the US East Coast? Most likely 10-30 years, in which time all of the current union members will be retired. Unions care too much about the small possibility of losing some jobs quicker than expected and not enough about the entire country becoming uncompetitive because they are the only people who can unlock high productivity between countries.
- StanislavPetrov 2y ago
  >How long does it take to automate all of the ports on the US East Coast? How long did it take to completely destroy the working class of the United States with NAFTA and globalization? >Most likely 10-30 years, in which time all of the current union members will be retired. I'm sure that will come as a surprise to thousands of current union members. Try telling a room full of union workers, many in their late 20s and early 30s, who spent 5+ years as apprentices making low wages and working the least desirable positions in order to earn their union book that their jobs will be eliminated in 10 years by automation and see how that goes down. >Unions care too much about the small possibility of losing some jobs quicker than expected and not enough about the entire country becoming uncompetitive because they are the only people who can unlock high productivity between countries. Who says we need high productivity between countries? Globalism is not something that has been beneficial to working people in the United States. It has been the complete opposite. Why should unions care if wealthy business owners can make a few billion more by eliminating their jobs? People just aren't buying the fallacy that the extra billions being accrued by the international business elite will somehow "trickle down" to the rest of us anymore.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    The working class had been degrading since Nixon opened China and then Raegan deregulated large swaths of the economy in the 70s. Even if NAFTA may have accelerated things slightly, it didn’t really materially impact the trajectory since China has had a bigger impact on the working class than Mexico. It turns out that capital will always try to find the cheapest workers. And before globalizations, people would complain about low-priced immigrants coming and taking jobs. As for globalism, if anything you’re complaining that there isn’t enough globalism in terms of a global regulation on what business owners and countries can and can’t do. Because otherwise you’re just getting outcompeted and trying to silo off your country leads to a long death.
  - AYBABTME 2y ago
    > Who says we need high productivity between countries? A long history of countries taking the piss when another more advanced one comes around with wildly superior industrial technology and capacity.
shiroiushi 2y ago
>Except the longshoremen, the dock workers, their families, the businesses around the docks and the communities where the (now unemployed) dock workers and their families live. Exactly. This is why container ships should be banned, as well as any containerized shipping. We need to go back to using stevedores to load and unload all cargo on ships by hand, even though this results in a large fraction of it getting broken or damaged and takes far, far longer to complete. This will employ far more people in shipping. After that, we need to ban transportation of cargo by tractor-trailer, and require cargo to only be transported by horse and carriage, and also paddlewheel riverboat. This will revive the industries around these things that employed countless people.
thephyber 2y ago
> Take a drive through Gary, Indiana or Flint, Michigan or a thousand other towns throughout the country that were supporting thriving, middle-class communities and are now burnt-out, depopulated husks. It is Revisionism to blame the fall of Flint/Detroit on NAFTA. {The South / union benefits, Saudi Arabia / the Oil Crisis, The Civil Rights Act / The Southern Strategy} destroyed Detroit, not NAFTA. Detroit’s population peaked in the late 1960s, but NAFTA/WTO didn’t start until late 1990s. The 1960s was an amazing time to be an auto worker in that area, but those companies became uncompetitive when oil got expensive and union labor became a liability in a time when the entire US auto industry needed to compete with tiny Japan and Europe exports moving up the value chain. Also, auto companies figured out it was far cheaper to move to the old slave states than to keep paying defined benefits plans to Rust Belt workers. Self-inflicted wound by unions. They get too focused on self-interested negotiations and can’t see when innovation is ready to disrupt the current market leaders.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  >Self-inflicted wound by unions. They get too focused on self-interested negotiations and can’t see when innovation is ready to disrupt the current market leaders. Dock work isn't a free market. It's pretty much mandated by whoever the government allows to work in that sector. That's why they can technically mandate this as an illegal strike. This is self-infliced wounds from benefiting from decades of efficienty while buying power torpedoes. As we see, this isn't some one off anamoly this year.

thephyber 2y ago

> Many would argue otherwise. In reality, the result ends up being a massive reduction in the number of longshoremen / dock workers as they are replaced with robots. I’ll bite. How long does it take to automate all of the ports on the US East Coast? Most likely 10-30 years, in which time all of the current union members will be retired. Unions care too much about the small possibility of losing some jobs quicker than expected and not enough about the entire country becoming uncompetitive because they are the only people who can unlock high productivity between countries.

StanislavPetrov 2y ago
>How long does it take to automate all of the ports on the US East Coast? How long did it take to completely destroy the working class of the United States with NAFTA and globalization? >Most likely 10-30 years, in which time all of the current union members will be retired. I'm sure that will come as a surprise to thousands of current union members. Try telling a room full of union workers, many in their late 20s and early 30s, who spent 5+ years as apprentices making low wages and working the least desirable positions in order to earn their union book that their jobs will be eliminated in 10 years by automation and see how that goes down. >Unions care too much about the small possibility of losing some jobs quicker than expected and not enough about the entire country becoming uncompetitive because they are the only people who can unlock high productivity between countries. Who says we need high productivity between countries? Globalism is not something that has been beneficial to working people in the United States. It has been the complete opposite. Why should unions care if wealthy business owners can make a few billion more by eliminating their jobs? People just aren't buying the fallacy that the extra billions being accrued by the international business elite will somehow "trickle down" to the rest of us anymore.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  The working class had been degrading since Nixon opened China and then Raegan deregulated large swaths of the economy in the 70s. Even if NAFTA may have accelerated things slightly, it didn’t really materially impact the trajectory since China has had a bigger impact on the working class than Mexico. It turns out that capital will always try to find the cheapest workers. And before globalizations, people would complain about low-priced immigrants coming and taking jobs. As for globalism, if anything you’re complaining that there isn’t enough globalism in terms of a global regulation on what business owners and countries can and can’t do. Because otherwise you’re just getting outcompeted and trying to silo off your country leads to a long death.
- AYBABTME 2y ago
  > Who says we need high productivity between countries? A long history of countries taking the piss when another more advanced one comes around with wildly superior industrial technology and capacity.

shiroiushi 2y ago

>Except the longshoremen, the dock workers, their families, the businesses around the docks and the communities where the (now unemployed) dock workers and their families live. Exactly. This is why container ships should be banned, as well as any containerized shipping. We need to go back to using stevedores to load and unload all cargo on ships by hand, even though this results in a large fraction of it getting broken or damaged and takes far, far longer to complete. This will employ far more people in shipping. After that, we need to ban transportation of cargo by tractor-trailer, and require cargo to only be transported by horse and carriage, and also paddlewheel riverboat. This will revive the industries around these things that employed countless people.

thephyber 2y ago

> Take a drive through Gary, Indiana or Flint, Michigan or a thousand other towns throughout the country that were supporting thriving, middle-class communities and are now burnt-out, depopulated husks. It is Revisionism to blame the fall of Flint/Detroit on NAFTA. {The South / union benefits, Saudi Arabia / the Oil Crisis, The Civil Rights Act / The Southern Strategy} destroyed Detroit, not NAFTA. Detroit’s population peaked in the late 1960s, but NAFTA/WTO didn’t start until late 1990s. The 1960s was an amazing time to be an auto worker in that area, but those companies became uncompetitive when oil got expensive and union labor became a liability in a time when the entire US auto industry needed to compete with tiny Japan and Europe exports moving up the value chain. Also, auto companies figured out it was far cheaper to move to the old slave states than to keep paying defined benefits plans to Rust Belt workers. Self-inflicted wound by unions. They get too focused on self-interested negotiations and can’t see when innovation is ready to disrupt the current market leaders.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
>Self-inflicted wound by unions. They get too focused on self-interested negotiations and can’t see when innovation is ready to disrupt the current market leaders. Dock work isn't a free market. It's pretty much mandated by whoever the government allows to work in that sector. That's why they can technically mandate this as an illegal strike. This is self-infliced wounds from benefiting from decades of efficienty while buying power torpedoes. As we see, this isn't some one off anamoly this year.