5 ms·

Minitel: The rise and fall of the France-wide web

69 points by 1gor 14y ago

da_n 14y ago
I think this whole Minitel story is fascinating and should be used as an example of why a free and open internet is always necessary. This shows what happens when you have a locked-down, closed system controlled by private companies and government. There was no room to allow innovation, stagnating until the www put the nail into its coffin.
- 1gor 14y ago
  I wonder if Facebook will be tomorrow's Minitel... But seriously, why some network system layers failed and others thrived? It is not protocol. Gopher was also TCP/IP based, and it has disappeared...
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    It's classic worse is better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html The web had a much, much faster "OODA" loop than competing platforms, and it had a much easier route to being more widely used. Sometimes we fail to see elegance because we see right through it.
  - allardschip 14y ago
    I think you can safely say it is today's Minitel for many.
- gaius 14y ago
  But on the other hand, you do get all the benefits of the advanced technology 10 years before the rest of the world. It's easy to scoff now, but remember what Newton said about standing on the shoulders of giants. And remember that ARPAnet could easily have gone the same way, it was also a govt-backed project...
  - arethuza 14y ago
    "govt-backed project" As was initial development of the Web - at least indirectly through CERN.
    - hollerith 14y ago
      Although I agree with your overall point that the early Web is essentially a creation of the government (and of individual programmers) and not of the free market, I disagree that CERN had anything important to do with the Web. The extent of CERN's sponsorship of the development of the Web was that Tim Berners-Lee obtained permission from his boss to work on it during work hours. His boss's main reason for giving the permission was that he wanted CERN to start evaluating NeXT, Inc, as one of CERN's suppliers, and development of this Web thing seemed just as good a test of NeXT's marketing claims about the excellence of its development environment as anything else. Probably the biggest way that CERN helped was by providing a good living for a relatively large population of potential early adopters of the Web. (Before the "discovery" of the internet by the mainstream media in 1993, adoption of the internet was almost completely by very-high-IQ folks.) ADDED. The much more important point, though, is the fact that when Tim BL started developing the Web, the Internet was a very fertile and welcoming environment for experimentation. If you are on Linux or Mac, take a look at /etc/services and realize each of the port numbers you see listed in that file is an experiment. (Note that most of the least successful experiments might not have made it into that file.) I tend to agree with those who say that if Tim BL hadn't invented the Web, it would not have taken long for someone else to invent something similar (something that allows owners of web sites to create experience on graphical UIs that are more compelling that the plain text that was dominant on the Internet till then). In discussions like this about which individuals and organizations caused an important technological development, it is important to keep in mind one's reasons for wanting to know. My reason for wanting to know how much of the Web and the Internet was caused by government is that it helps me decide how likely government-employed or government-funded individuals are to contribute to future important innovations.
      - arethuza 14y ago
        Cool - I started using it in late '92. :-)
- thibaut_barrere 14y ago
  I don't know, really: the Minitel also brought tons of money to people who later, in turn, innovated or disrupted markets. Xavier Niel is the canonical example of that (the guy behind Free mobile/dsl).
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
alx 14y ago
Webcam for minitel: http://tetalab.org/blog/update-webcam-pour-minitel-%C3%A7a-manquait http://tetalab.org/blog/update-webcam-pour-minitel-%C3%A7a-m...
Loic 14y ago
The article is very biased and for some points with factual errors: > This meant that even the poorest of households contained a set, subsidised by the taxpayer. It was a freemium model, France Telecom was making a lot of money and was able to fund the Minitel without tax payer money. In fact, France Telecom was a cash cow for the government, not a single time took France Telecom money from the tax payers. Also, my grand parents were able to use it, basically everybody could use it, the Internet took off extremely well in France across all the generations because it was possible to say: "this is like the Minitel, just type here the address, and there you go". I did introduction courses to learn how to use Internet in the late 90's and for the 100's of people I helped, the Minitel analogy was perfect and allowed us to move forward extremely fast. Edit: Thinking about it, this is the same model as the app store. To sell on the app store, you need to ask Apple first. You had to ask France Telecom at that time.
- 1gor 14y ago
  Thinking about it, this is the same model as the app store. Here is an analogy with WWW vs. Minitel case. Does Apple allow multiple alternative app stores? If not, then Android should eventually make it obsolete, since you do not have to 'ask Google' to create and market a mobile app there.
  - simonh 14y ago
    Only if the barrier to entering the app store is high enough to prevent high quality apps getting into it. Furthermore if the app store barriers filter out poor quality apps and allow in high quality ones, then it actually adds value.
- JumpCrisscross 14y ago
  This is BBC - I'd be slow to call them biased. »"not a single time took France Telecom money from the tax payers" France Telecom's capital investments provided by the government and cheap financing rates are forms of subsidy. Further, they get bailed out - last I remember is €9 billion in 2002 [1]. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2542297.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2542297.stm
agumonkey 14y ago
Talking about France lack of insights toward networking, checkout Louis Pouzin work. His work was among the first using datagrams. Ironically it was pulled down for various reasons in Europe.

69 points by 1gor 14y ago

da_n 14y ago

I think this whole Minitel story is fascinating and should be used as an example of why a free and open internet is always necessary. This shows what happens when you have a locked-down, closed system controlled by private companies and government. There was no room to allow innovation, stagnating until the www put the nail into its coffin.

1gor 14y ago
I wonder if Facebook will be tomorrow's Minitel... But seriously, why some network system layers failed and others thrived? It is not protocol. Gopher was also TCP/IP based, and it has disappeared...
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  It's classic worse is better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html The web had a much, much faster "OODA" loop than competing platforms, and it had a much easier route to being more widely used. Sometimes we fail to see elegance because we see right through it.
- allardschip 14y ago
  I think you can safely say it is today's Minitel for many.
gaius 14y ago
But on the other hand, you do get all the benefits of the advanced technology 10 years before the rest of the world. It's easy to scoff now, but remember what Newton said about standing on the shoulders of giants. And remember that ARPAnet could easily have gone the same way, it was also a govt-backed project...
- arethuza 14y ago
  "govt-backed project" As was initial development of the Web - at least indirectly through CERN.
  - hollerith 14y ago
    Although I agree with your overall point that the early Web is essentially a creation of the government (and of individual programmers) and not of the free market, I disagree that CERN had anything important to do with the Web. The extent of CERN's sponsorship of the development of the Web was that Tim Berners-Lee obtained permission from his boss to work on it during work hours. His boss's main reason for giving the permission was that he wanted CERN to start evaluating NeXT, Inc, as one of CERN's suppliers, and development of this Web thing seemed just as good a test of NeXT's marketing claims about the excellence of its development environment as anything else. Probably the biggest way that CERN helped was by providing a good living for a relatively large population of potential early adopters of the Web. (Before the "discovery" of the internet by the mainstream media in 1993, adoption of the internet was almost completely by very-high-IQ folks.) ADDED. The much more important point, though, is the fact that when Tim BL started developing the Web, the Internet was a very fertile and welcoming environment for experimentation. If you are on Linux or Mac, take a look at /etc/services and realize each of the port numbers you see listed in that file is an experiment. (Note that most of the least successful experiments might not have made it into that file.) I tend to agree with those who say that if Tim BL hadn't invented the Web, it would not have taken long for someone else to invent something similar (something that allows owners of web sites to create experience on graphical UIs that are more compelling that the plain text that was dominant on the Internet till then). In discussions like this about which individuals and organizations caused an important technological development, it is important to keep in mind one's reasons for wanting to know. My reason for wanting to know how much of the Web and the Internet was caused by government is that it helps me decide how likely government-employed or government-funded individuals are to contribute to future important innovations.
    - arethuza 14y ago
      Cool - I started using it in late '92. :-)
thibaut_barrere 14y ago
I don't know, really: the Minitel also brought tons of money to people who later, in turn, innovated or disrupted markets. Xavier Niel is the canonical example of that (the guy behind Free mobile/dsl).

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

alx 14y ago

Webcam for minitel: http://tetalab.org/blog/update-webcam-pour-minitel-%C3%A7a-manquait http://tetalab.org/blog/update-webcam-pour-minitel-%C3%A7a-m...

Loic 14y ago

The article is very biased and for some points with factual errors: > This meant that even the poorest of households contained a set, subsidised by the taxpayer. It was a freemium model, France Telecom was making a lot of money and was able to fund the Minitel without tax payer money. In fact, France Telecom was a cash cow for the government, not a single time took France Telecom money from the tax payers. Also, my grand parents were able to use it, basically everybody could use it, the Internet took off extremely well in France across all the generations because it was possible to say: "this is like the Minitel, just type here the address, and there you go". I did introduction courses to learn how to use Internet in the late 90's and for the 100's of people I helped, the Minitel analogy was perfect and allowed us to move forward extremely fast. Edit: Thinking about it, this is the same model as the app store. To sell on the app store, you need to ask Apple first. You had to ask France Telecom at that time.

1gor 14y ago
Thinking about it, this is the same model as the app store. Here is an analogy with WWW vs. Minitel case. Does Apple allow multiple alternative app stores? If not, then Android should eventually make it obsolete, since you do not have to 'ask Google' to create and market a mobile app there.
- simonh 14y ago
  Only if the barrier to entering the app store is high enough to prevent high quality apps getting into it. Furthermore if the app store barriers filter out poor quality apps and allow in high quality ones, then it actually adds value.
JumpCrisscross 14y ago
This is BBC - I'd be slow to call them biased. »"not a single time took France Telecom money from the tax payers" France Telecom's capital investments provided by the government and cheap financing rates are forms of subsidy. Further, they get bailed out - last I remember is €9 billion in 2002 [1]. [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2542297.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2542297.stm

agumonkey 14y ago

Talking about France lack of insights toward networking, checkout Louis Pouzin work. His work was among the first using datagrams. Ironically it was pulled down for various reasons in Europe.