5 ms·

Reddit policy changes make sitewide protests nearly impossible

64 points by notamy 2y ago

Terr_ 2y ago
> Nestler also suggested that this is an issue of personal responsibility, writing that “communities should honor the expectations they set – public communities should remain accessible to all; private communities should remain private.” By that logic--functioning as a champion of casual visitors--shouldn't Reddit start being responsive when a moderation team gets taken over by a new clique and starts banning most of the regulars? As a personal side-gripe: Their anti-spam/appeals process is also broken: A frequent account in good standing for over a decade can get l shadowbanned (including all comments anybody else ever made in reply), have the appeal granted, and then nothing is fixed and there's no way to contact anybody because the appeals page falsely claims the account is normal.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  I'm curious how shadow-banning is even allowed by their own ToS.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    If Reddit breaks the ToS, does that mean the "irrevocable" publishing license for everything you contributed is actually revoked? As a matter of contract law, it seems odd to be able to declare something will survive the breaking of the contract's terms. (As distinct from regular termination.) Ex: "The seller will irrevocably transfer ownership of the car to the buyer, and the buyer will give the seller X dollars", and then the buyer's check bounces.
    - EPWN3D 2y ago
      The remedy has to be commensurate with the damage. In your car analogy, the remedy is pretty clearly "Give the car back" or similar. In the Reddit ToS case, it's not clear that revoking licenses already granted will make you whole again. It all depends on the specific nature of the infraction and if penalties for it are already laid out in the contract. If Reddit declines your request to take a sub private, then why would taking away license to your comment fix anything? It's purely punitive, and I doubt there are any statutes with punitive damages that apply to this scenario. In any case, I'd imagine that the ToS makes you agree to arbitration if you take issue with Reddit's adherence to it. Arbitration clauses aren't inserted into contracts because of how famously impartial and sympathetic arbiters are to plaintiffs. They're in there because they're a stacked deck.
- newZWhoDis 2y ago
  Both Reddit and Nextdoor are suffering greatly from their volunteer mod problem. They have basically allowed the worst elements of their community to dominate and manipulate their most valuable properties (the subs belong to Reddit, and when a bad mod team ruins a sub that hurts Reddit more than anyone) Reddit corporate has also ruined small communities and directly allowed this kind of power mod takeover via minimum activity rules.
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    What’s a minimum activity rule?
  - raxxorraxor 2y ago
    I usually have the opposite experience, new mods destroy the community or it splinters into more subs. The vanity of reddit made it possible that some of the worst people became mods. It was mostly some random pretext to throw people out of their own communities and many of them aren't around today anymore. Powermods shouldn't even exist, maybe restrict mods to 1-2 subs. This would at least reduce very likely the vast amount of low quality moderation decisions. But in the end I don't even believe this is fixable. New mods are rarer because the platform is mature. Of course you still can create niche subs, but those are in danger of being captured as well.
mdotk 2y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41702198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41702198
dredmorbius 2y ago
Dupe: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762> Also covered at the Verge (via an earlier, low-traction, HN submission): <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699483>
tivert 2y ago
Instead of going private, could mods just setup auto-moderator to automatically delete everything?
- andrewinardeer 2y ago
  Sure they can. Also, isn't there a function to only allow approved submitters to post in a subreddit?
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Also, isn't there a function to only allow approved submitters to post in a subreddit? I believe so. It would be an interesting to use spam/moderation features to protest reddit. It might put them in a bind of either allowing the protest mechanism, letting their community go (more) to shit, or increasing their admin staffing workload/cost.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
wodenokoto 2y ago
So what’s the next Reddit? Like, there are tons of projects working on twitter replacements, but is there anything with any kind of steam for a federated discussion forum?
- ttt3ts 2y ago
  https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy Lemmy is one such alternative. I follow a few instances.
  - OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
    I moved to Lemmy back in 2020, and last logged in to Reddit in 2023. Here are some thoughts for those interested: * Lemmy has much more "extreme" roots. The original people who went to Lemmy back in 2018/2019 have very strong political ideologies, and even though Lemmy is much bigger now, those roots really shaped the culture of Lemmy * Lemmy is federated, sort of like email. You can self-host your own email provider if you really want, but you should probably just register to one of the top 3 providers * Lemmy is missing niche communities. At around ~1% the size of Reddit, you just won't find a community for your favorite game, city, or meme genre * Lemmy is obviously open source (AGPL), and their servers are very cheap to run (compared to Reddit's insane op costs) * As a poster, I enjoy "contributing" quality content to Lemmy. No one is getting rich or IPOing off my work, and it is clearly designed in a way that even if the founders wanted to make it profitable, they couldn't Tl;dr For KPIs, Lemmy is objectively worse than Reddit. The only real reason to go is if you like the "alternative" social media services.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      That extreme attitude also follows over to many instances that are very controversial, like lemmygrad, hexbear etc. And because of that, many instances also block many other instances, leading to fragmentation and people seeing (or not) different sets of comments... it's very much a "which wind would you like to piss into" situation IMO. I always feel like my comments do not reach many people and am questioning why I even bother to say something.
bun_terminator 2y ago
[flagged]
- sandspar 2y ago
  What alternative would you suggest?
  - bun_terminator 2y ago
    Just not having moderators - the end. The site has a voting mechanism that will take care of most spammers and other vermin
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      Not an option... it will just get filled with illegal things faster than people can vote (or bots will make voting pointless), and then people will leave.
      - bun_terminator 2y ago
        bots voting is orthogonal to moderating. And illegal content: Maybe, but it'll get downvoted=hidden, so not a problem. "Moderation" is inversely proportional to quality in literally every online community in existence.
        ranger_danger 2y ago
        I don't think you can know that it won't be a problem, and I would argue it's already a problem in some places. Not all sites even hide downvoted content... and disagreements on subjective things will still mean even heavy moderation can't save some groups from being unwelcoming to a lot of people.
dukeofdoom 2y ago
The problem with censorship it makes you feel so good for being so rigtous for doing it. But it's like eating at McDonald's, do it once and it might feel filling. Do it all the time and you'll smell like their French fries, and people will start avoiding you. Someone posted some stats on 4chan and in one of their top reddits only a handful of people were online. So at this point Reddit might be bots talking to bots being censored by bots.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I don’t see what the point of Reddit is anymore. Ever since 2016, the site has undergone a series of massive changes - purges of various subreddits, consolidation of moderator control, aggressive moderation/censorship polices, and a user hostile design. It’s an echo chamber and propaganda machine, precisely because no different opinions are allowed to exist or gain popularity due to the dictatorial control of site admins and mods. Everyone hates on X/Twitter but it allows a far more honest discussion than Reddit.
nailer 2y ago
I got permanently banned from Reddit for saying Hamas must be destroyed. The site is absolute garbage and I can’t wait until whatever’s next takes over.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  What makes you think a replacement will act any differently? Moderators have to balance free speech between being a place people actually want to be in, and you can't please everyone.
  - nailer 2y ago
    The vast majority of people would agree that terrorist organisation should be destroyed, and not object to others saying so.
    - ranger_danger 2y ago
      I don't see how that's related even if it were true. It's entirely possible Reddit ToS has a general rule of not inciting violence, which that comment likely violated, and could be completely unrelated to who you were talking about. I wouldn't want to see that comment on this site either.
      - nailer 2y ago
        Wishing for a terrorist grip to be destroyed is not inciting violence. Also Hamas must be destroyed.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  Depends on the sub you are in, but yes, reddit has an absurd amount of Hamas sympathizers.
nashashmi 2y ago
Moderators that ban users without due cause simply because they don’t like the viewpoint being brought forward will still be able to ban users anyway. These mods wont be suspended but rather be part of the Reddit gang who are in alliance to do what the Reddit lords want them to do. The start of malice
kkfx 2y ago
I'm always curious why, since we have usenet, people keep using Reddit... The quid, the platform way to attract people offering NOTHING better than someone else it's the key to milk people...
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Spam.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    Back then yes, but nowadays even DBACL could keep PERSONAL effective spam control (meaning every client filter for itself, living the network really uncensored).

64 points by notamy 2y ago

> Nestler also suggested that this is an issue of personal responsibility, writing that “communities should honor the expectations they set – public communities should remain accessible to all; private communities should remain private.” By that logic--functioning as a champion of casual visitors--shouldn't Reddit start being responsive when a moderation team gets taken over by a new clique and starts banning most of the regulars? As a personal side-gripe: Their anti-spam/appeals process is also broken: A frequent account in good standing for over a decade can get l shadowbanned (including all comments anybody else ever made in reply), have the appeal granted, and then nothing is fixed and there's no way to contact anybody because the appeals page falsely claims the account is normal.

ranger_danger 2y ago
I'm curious how shadow-banning is even allowed by their own ToS.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  If Reddit breaks the ToS, does that mean the "irrevocable" publishing license for everything you contributed is actually revoked? As a matter of contract law, it seems odd to be able to declare something will survive the breaking of the contract's terms. (As distinct from regular termination.) Ex: "The seller will irrevocably transfer ownership of the car to the buyer, and the buyer will give the seller X dollars", and then the buyer's check bounces.
  - EPWN3D 2y ago
    The remedy has to be commensurate with the damage. In your car analogy, the remedy is pretty clearly "Give the car back" or similar. In the Reddit ToS case, it's not clear that revoking licenses already granted will make you whole again. It all depends on the specific nature of the infraction and if penalties for it are already laid out in the contract. If Reddit declines your request to take a sub private, then why would taking away license to your comment fix anything? It's purely punitive, and I doubt there are any statutes with punitive damages that apply to this scenario. In any case, I'd imagine that the ToS makes you agree to arbitration if you take issue with Reddit's adherence to it. Arbitration clauses aren't inserted into contracts because of how famously impartial and sympathetic arbiters are to plaintiffs. They're in there because they're a stacked deck.
newZWhoDis 2y ago
Both Reddit and Nextdoor are suffering greatly from their volunteer mod problem. They have basically allowed the worst elements of their community to dominate and manipulate their most valuable properties (the subs belong to Reddit, and when a bad mod team ruins a sub that hurts Reddit more than anyone) Reddit corporate has also ruined small communities and directly allowed this kind of power mod takeover via minimum activity rules.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  What’s a minimum activity rule?
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  I usually have the opposite experience, new mods destroy the community or it splinters into more subs. The vanity of reddit made it possible that some of the worst people became mods. It was mostly some random pretext to throw people out of their own communities and many of them aren't around today anymore. Powermods shouldn't even exist, maybe restrict mods to 1-2 subs. This would at least reduce very likely the vast amount of low quality moderation decisions. But in the end I don't even believe this is fixable. New mods are rarer because the platform is mature. Of course you still can create niche subs, but those are in danger of being captured as well.

mdotk 2y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41702198 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41702198

dredmorbius 2y ago

Dupe: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762> Also covered at the Verge (via an earlier, low-traction, HN submission): <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699483>

tivert 2y ago

Instead of going private, could mods just setup auto-moderator to automatically delete everything?

andrewinardeer 2y ago
Sure they can. Also, isn't there a function to only allow approved submitters to post in a subreddit?
- tivert 2y ago
  > Also, isn't there a function to only allow approved submitters to post in a subreddit? I believe so. It would be an interesting to use spam/moderation features to protest reddit. It might put them in a bind of either allowing the protest mechanism, letting their community go (more) to shit, or increasing their admin staffing workload/cost.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

wodenokoto 2y ago

So what’s the next Reddit? Like, there are tons of projects working on twitter replacements, but is there anything with any kind of steam for a federated discussion forum?

ttt3ts 2y ago
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy Lemmy is one such alternative. I follow a few instances.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
  I moved to Lemmy back in 2020, and last logged in to Reddit in 2023. Here are some thoughts for those interested: * Lemmy has much more "extreme" roots. The original people who went to Lemmy back in 2018/2019 have very strong political ideologies, and even though Lemmy is much bigger now, those roots really shaped the culture of Lemmy * Lemmy is federated, sort of like email. You can self-host your own email provider if you really want, but you should probably just register to one of the top 3 providers * Lemmy is missing niche communities. At around ~1% the size of Reddit, you just won't find a community for your favorite game, city, or meme genre * Lemmy is obviously open source (AGPL), and their servers are very cheap to run (compared to Reddit's insane op costs) * As a poster, I enjoy "contributing" quality content to Lemmy. No one is getting rich or IPOing off my work, and it is clearly designed in a way that even if the founders wanted to make it profitable, they couldn't Tl;dr For KPIs, Lemmy is objectively worse than Reddit. The only real reason to go is if you like the "alternative" social media services.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    That extreme attitude also follows over to many instances that are very controversial, like lemmygrad, hexbear etc. And because of that, many instances also block many other instances, leading to fragmentation and people seeing (or not) different sets of comments... it's very much a "which wind would you like to piss into" situation IMO. I always feel like my comments do not reach many people and am questioning why I even bother to say something.

bun_terminator 2y ago

[flagged]

sandspar 2y ago
What alternative would you suggest?
- bun_terminator 2y ago
  Just not having moderators - the end. The site has a voting mechanism that will take care of most spammers and other vermin
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    Not an option... it will just get filled with illegal things faster than people can vote (or bots will make voting pointless), and then people will leave.
    - bun_terminator 2y ago
      bots voting is orthogonal to moderating. And illegal content: Maybe, but it'll get downvoted=hidden, so not a problem. "Moderation" is inversely proportional to quality in literally every online community in existence.
      - ranger_danger 2y ago
        I don't think you can know that it won't be a problem, and I would argue it's already a problem in some places. Not all sites even hide downvoted content... and disagreements on subjective things will still mean even heavy moderation can't save some groups from being unwelcoming to a lot of people.

dukeofdoom 2y ago

The problem with censorship it makes you feel so good for being so rigtous for doing it. But it's like eating at McDonald's, do it once and it might feel filling. Do it all the time and you'll smell like their French fries, and people will start avoiding you. Someone posted some stats on 4chan and in one of their top reddits only a handful of people were online. So at this point Reddit might be bots talking to bots being censored by bots.

ranger_danger 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41698762

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I don’t see what the point of Reddit is anymore. Ever since 2016, the site has undergone a series of massive changes - purges of various subreddits, consolidation of moderator control, aggressive moderation/censorship polices, and a user hostile design. It’s an echo chamber and propaganda machine, precisely because no different opinions are allowed to exist or gain popularity due to the dictatorial control of site admins and mods. Everyone hates on X/Twitter but it allows a far more honest discussion than Reddit.

nailer 2y ago

I got permanently banned from Reddit for saying Hamas must be destroyed. The site is absolute garbage and I can’t wait until whatever’s next takes over.

ranger_danger 2y ago
What makes you think a replacement will act any differently? Moderators have to balance free speech between being a place people actually want to be in, and you can't please everyone.
- nailer 2y ago
  The vast majority of people would agree that terrorist organisation should be destroyed, and not object to others saying so.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    I don't see how that's related even if it were true. It's entirely possible Reddit ToS has a general rule of not inciting violence, which that comment likely violated, and could be completely unrelated to who you were talking about. I wouldn't want to see that comment on this site either.
    - nailer 2y ago
      Wishing for a terrorist grip to be destroyed is not inciting violence. Also Hamas must be destroyed.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
Depends on the sub you are in, but yes, reddit has an absurd amount of Hamas sympathizers.

nashashmi 2y ago

Moderators that ban users without due cause simply because they don’t like the viewpoint being brought forward will still be able to ban users anyway. These mods wont be suspended but rather be part of the Reddit gang who are in alliance to do what the Reddit lords want them to do. The start of malice

kkfx 2y ago

I'm always curious why, since we have usenet, people keep using Reddit... The quid, the platform way to attract people offering NOTHING better than someone else it's the key to milk people...

ranger_danger 2y ago
Spam.
- kkfx 2y ago
  Back then yes, but nowadays even DBACL could keep PERSONAL effective spam control (meaning every client filter for itself, living the network really uncensored).