4 ms·

> The students are people who work really hard and those who were born right. You forgot the third group: those that got a free pass due to diversity hiring. T

> The students are people who work really hard and those who were born right. You forgot the third group: those that got a free pass due to diversity hiring. These didn't need to work hard at all.

Spivak 2y ago
That's not how this works at all. Do you think someone with a 2.5 GPA in high-school and not much else outside that is getting into Harvard because they're hispanic or whatever? They're sitting on a stack of applicants to the ceiling of 4.2 GPAs and good looking extracurriculars and volunteer work of all backgrounds. Literally all of them meeting the bar to be successful at $PrestigiousUniversity. Affirmative action is choosing how to pick from that stack.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  And it turns out that if you use race to choose who to pick from that stack it's a blatant violation of the civil rights act of 1964.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    According to the same jurists who gutted that civil rights act.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    Not saying it isn't, am saying that nobody is getting a free pass. But taking a step back, folks aren't really that opposed to "positive discrimination" when forced to actually reveal their preferences. We call positive sexism is chivalry, and positive racism affirmative action and it's broadly supported. The population most strongly opposed to positive racism are people who want or are indifferent to negative racism so it's hard to know how to read that.
    - fallingknife 2y ago
      I have no idea what you are getting at with that word salad, but Americans are against racist admissions by a 2 to 1 margin. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/16/supreme-court-affirmative-action-00135787 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/16/supreme-court-affir...
      - Spivak 2y ago
        https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/16/americans-and-affirmative-action-how-the-public-sees-the-consideration-of-race-in-college-admissions-hiring/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/16/americans... Or... not and the results of polls heavily depend on how the question is asked. Apparently more people say affirmative action is good than bad. So maybe? Even the pew poll gets wildly inconsistent results depending on the question. The only consistent thing in all the graphs is the left/right split and you're more likely to be against affirmative action when it's selecting against you.
        int_19h 2y ago
        Affirmative action doesn't seem to fare well when it's a subject of a referendum, even in otherwise "deep blue" states where you'd expect the public sentiment to be in favor of it.
      - drawkward 2y ago
        "Racist admissions" lol. American society is systematically racist. Americans have a horrible legacy of racism and, frankly, haven't dealt with it.
kristopolous 2y ago
That's never how it worked although I'm sure with 5,300 colleges and universities some clickbait media sensationalist found an admissions officer saying something off-color on a hot mic somewhere. The formula is to find something that happens < 0.01% of the time and scandalize it pretending it's 99.99% of the time. It's tired 1990s style tabloid nonsense repurposed in the public sphere. Anyways, the Varsity Blues scandal was a real thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal and stuff like that should be the real focus.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  The discovery from the recent supreme court contained an internal Harvard study that concluded the majority of black students would not be admitted if only academic performance was used in admissions. But you and the other supporters of racist admissions can go ahead and keep pretending it's 0.01% of the time.
  - kristopolous 2y ago
    There we go. That's not what happened as evidenced after Harvard changed their policy, the percentage of black applicants acceptance was within the normal variation. Percentage of total enrollment changed but not the percentage of applicant acceptance. Instead, application numbers went down. (https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/harvard-applications-drop-after-antisemitism/ https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/harvard-applications-d...) This has been clumsily misreported by looking at incorrect numbers. It's acceptance rate as a percentage of applicants, not as a percentage of the total enrollment. This entire sensationalist apparatus relies on sloppy reporting, imaginative thinking and fixing the facts around a presumed narrative. It can't withstand scrutiny because it's manufactured for ad revenue and content engagement. Scandalous tall tales about Harvard letting in unqualified black students through a secret administrative backdoor is one of the ways grifters sell boner pills through podcasts and wordpress sites.
    - fallingknife 2y ago
      You are deflecting by talking about what happened to admissions after the SC decision. I am talking about Harvard's own internal numbers that they fought to keep hidden, but came out on discovery.

> The students are people who work really hard and those who were born right. You forgot the third group: those that got a free pass due to diversity hiring. These didn't need to work hard at all.

Spivak 2y ago

That's not how this works at all. Do you think someone with a 2.5 GPA in high-school and not much else outside that is getting into Harvard because they're hispanic or whatever? They're sitting on a stack of applicants to the ceiling of 4.2 GPAs and good looking extracurriculars and volunteer work of all backgrounds. Literally all of them meeting the bar to be successful at $PrestigiousUniversity. Affirmative action is choosing how to pick from that stack.

fallingknife 2y ago
And it turns out that if you use race to choose who to pick from that stack it's a blatant violation of the civil rights act of 1964.
- drawkward 2y ago
  According to the same jurists who gutted that civil rights act.
- Spivak 2y ago
  Not saying it isn't, am saying that nobody is getting a free pass. But taking a step back, folks aren't really that opposed to "positive discrimination" when forced to actually reveal their preferences. We call positive sexism is chivalry, and positive racism affirmative action and it's broadly supported. The population most strongly opposed to positive racism are people who want or are indifferent to negative racism so it's hard to know how to read that.
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    I have no idea what you are getting at with that word salad, but Americans are against racist admissions by a 2 to 1 margin. https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/16/supreme-court-affirmative-action-00135787 https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/16/supreme-court-affir...
    - Spivak 2y ago
      https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/16/americans-and-affirmative-action-how-the-public-sees-the-consideration-of-race-in-college-admissions-hiring/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/16/americans... Or... not and the results of polls heavily depend on how the question is asked. Apparently more people say affirmative action is good than bad. So maybe? Even the pew poll gets wildly inconsistent results depending on the question. The only consistent thing in all the graphs is the left/right split and you're more likely to be against affirmative action when it's selecting against you.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        Affirmative action doesn't seem to fare well when it's a subject of a referendum, even in otherwise "deep blue" states where you'd expect the public sentiment to be in favor of it.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      "Racist admissions" lol. American society is systematically racist. Americans have a horrible legacy of racism and, frankly, haven't dealt with it.

kristopolous 2y ago

That's never how it worked although I'm sure with 5,300 colleges and universities some clickbait media sensationalist found an admissions officer saying something off-color on a hot mic somewhere. The formula is to find something that happens < 0.01% of the time and scandalize it pretending it's 99.99% of the time. It's tired 1990s style tabloid nonsense repurposed in the public sphere. Anyways, the Varsity Blues scandal was a real thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal and stuff like that should be the real focus.

fallingknife 2y ago
The discovery from the recent supreme court contained an internal Harvard study that concluded the majority of black students would not be admitted if only academic performance was used in admissions. But you and the other supporters of racist admissions can go ahead and keep pretending it's 0.01% of the time.
- kristopolous 2y ago
  There we go. That's not what happened as evidenced after Harvard changed their policy, the percentage of black applicants acceptance was within the normal variation. Percentage of total enrollment changed but not the percentage of applicant acceptance. Instead, application numbers went down. (https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/harvard-applications-drop-after-antisemitism/ https://nypost.com/2024/03/29/us-news/harvard-applications-d...) This has been clumsily misreported by looking at incorrect numbers. It's acceptance rate as a percentage of applicants, not as a percentage of the total enrollment. This entire sensationalist apparatus relies on sloppy reporting, imaginative thinking and fixing the facts around a presumed narrative. It can't withstand scrutiny because it's manufactured for ad revenue and content engagement. Scandalous tall tales about Harvard letting in unqualified black students through a secret administrative backdoor is one of the ways grifters sell boner pills through podcasts and wordpress sites.
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    You are deflecting by talking about what happened to admissions after the SC decision. I am talking about Harvard's own internal numbers that they fought to keep hidden, but came out on discovery.