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For me "do we have free will" debate is useless because if the answer is "no" then that implies the result of the debate is predetermined and all involved lack

For me "do we have free will" debate is useless because if the answer is "no" then that implies the result of the debate is predetermined and all involved lack any agency to change the outcome. Therefore any adult arguing the "no free will" side is either 1. Disingenuous 2. Purposefully playing Candyland as an adult. Either of which is so damaging to the Ethos that I lack any desire to continue the debate.

yarg 2y ago
That doesn't follow. There's nothing disingenuous or moronic about believing that physical processes might be fundamentally deterministic.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  > There's nothing disingenuous or moronic about believing that physical processes might be fundamentally deterministic. My argument is that a game of Candyland is fundamentally deterministic in the same way.
  - yarg 2y ago
    Fair enough, but the parameter space is incomparable (and in the case of space-time irreplicable and chaotic, making events unrepeatable). And, unlike the game, it is impossible to hold the oracle's view (so even if freewill is illusory, it's an unbreakable illusion).
jchw 2y ago
> that implies the result of the debate is predetermined and all involved lack any agency to change the outcome. In a superdeterministic world, the presence of an illusion of free will is baked into everything humans do anyways. If the world is superdeterministic, but you can't actually predict what's about to happen with any additional certainty, then it doesn't really change anything anyway. So, there's no reason to change the way you argue based on the answer to the question in my opinion. Of course, now I'm arguing about whether arguing about free will makes any sense, which is perhaps even more silly, but alas.
kelnos 2y ago
I feel similarly, but for a different reason: even if I don't have free will, I'm not going to change anything about how I live my life. My life is still important to me, either way. Free will vs. determinism might be a fascinating academic question to some, but I just don't find it all that interesting. Same when it comes to arguments about whether or not our reality is a simulation, because, again, I'm not going to live any differently either way. My life is still important to me, even if it's just the result of an algorithm run on some computer built by an advanced civilization.
- aidenn0 2y ago
  I'm making a similar argument: if I don't have free will, I cannot change anything about by life because I don't have agency.

yarg 2y ago

That doesn't follow. There's nothing disingenuous or moronic about believing that physical processes might be fundamentally deterministic.

aidenn0 2y ago
> There's nothing disingenuous or moronic about believing that physical processes might be fundamentally deterministic. My argument is that a game of Candyland is fundamentally deterministic in the same way.
- yarg 2y ago
  Fair enough, but the parameter space is incomparable (and in the case of space-time irreplicable and chaotic, making events unrepeatable). And, unlike the game, it is impossible to hold the oracle's view (so even if freewill is illusory, it's an unbreakable illusion).

jchw 2y ago

> that implies the result of the debate is predetermined and all involved lack any agency to change the outcome. In a superdeterministic world, the presence of an illusion of free will is baked into everything humans do anyways. If the world is superdeterministic, but you can't actually predict what's about to happen with any additional certainty, then it doesn't really change anything anyway. So, there's no reason to change the way you argue based on the answer to the question in my opinion. Of course, now I'm arguing about whether arguing about free will makes any sense, which is perhaps even more silly, but alas.

kelnos 2y ago

I feel similarly, but for a different reason: even if I don't have free will, I'm not going to change anything about how I live my life. My life is still important to me, either way. Free will vs. determinism might be a fascinating academic question to some, but I just don't find it all that interesting. Same when it comes to arguments about whether or not our reality is a simulation, because, again, I'm not going to live any differently either way. My life is still important to me, even if it's just the result of an algorithm run on some computer built by an advanced civilization.

aidenn0 2y ago
I'm making a similar argument: if I don't have free will, I cannot change anything about by life because I don't have agency.