3 ms·

Can't stop buying if no options exist. I need a car. Toyota has done this for a while. BMW has IAP heaters in chairs. Etc. Etc. Etc.

bathtub365 2y ago
BMW stopped charging monthly for heated seats over a year ago
more_corn 2y ago
There are hundreds of options without subscriptions.
frereubu 2y ago
This is the crux of the bigger picture. I'm pretty sure all carmakers want to do this and they'll introduce it gradually, keeping an eye on each other to make sure that they're all doing it roughly in tandem so the vast majority of people just throw their hands up and accept it. I'm not sure what the solution is though. I can't imagine legislation working. Something along the lines of "if the funcionality doesn't change you can't charge a subscription for it" would probably be met with claims that because it's all software controlled the overhead of security udpates to the software requires some kind of recurring fee.
riscy 2y ago
US tariffs were put in to prevent Chinese cars from competing here too.
- rangerelf 2y ago
  It's not competition if it's actually dumping.
karaterobot 2y ago
I agree that people will think they don't have a choice, and will even act like they don't. But the reality is that there are plenty of new vehicles without subscriptions or in-app purchases, and even more used vehicles without them. Those are all options. With this process, it's always a series of choices, where choosing what the company wants is slightly easier than not choosing it, but it's still a choice.
- scottLobster 2y ago
  For now. Give it a few decades when all those used cars are no longer on the market. We're already entering the age where media is solely released on streaming platforms with no legal physical copies ever produced, let alone available to consumers. Cars will go much the same way. The only way to counter it would be some kind of legally enforceable "right to ownership", which could be argued is the next step after "right to repair". Relying on consumer choice is a libertarian fantasy, right up there with corporate self-regulation. Yes, both exist and have substantial impacts, but they lack the teeth to create sustainable economic systems that support a prosperous middle class. Only well-written government regulation can do the latter.
  - karaterobot 2y ago
    If you give up in advance of an expected loss, you create that loss, whether your expectation was right or wrong. On the other hand, if people didn't buy these vehicles, the companies who sell them would have to stop or be outcompeted. If, in the future, companies again try the same tactic, rinse and repeat until they go away. I think we both agree about what the outcome will be, but I am placing much of the blame on the above attitude and behavior by consumers, rather than on some sort of invisible force of the universe that leads towards enshittification. We're the enshittifiers.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      You can't rely on uncoordinated action from individual consumers to solve a problem that is being created by coordinated, collaborating companies. If BMW came out with a car that gave you an electric shock every 5 minutes of driving, people would just not buy BMW and the problem would eventually work itself out. But if every car manufacturer slowly introduced it and normalized it, to the point where soon no other alternatives exist, then we'd all just accept it and buy cars that shock us.

bathtub365 2y ago

BMW stopped charging monthly for heated seats over a year ago

more_corn 2y ago

There are hundreds of options without subscriptions.

frereubu 2y ago

This is the crux of the bigger picture. I'm pretty sure all carmakers want to do this and they'll introduce it gradually, keeping an eye on each other to make sure that they're all doing it roughly in tandem so the vast majority of people just throw their hands up and accept it. I'm not sure what the solution is though. I can't imagine legislation working. Something along the lines of "if the funcionality doesn't change you can't charge a subscription for it" would probably be met with claims that because it's all software controlled the overhead of security udpates to the software requires some kind of recurring fee.

riscy 2y ago

US tariffs were put in to prevent Chinese cars from competing here too.

rangerelf 2y ago
It's not competition if it's actually dumping.

karaterobot 2y ago

I agree that people will think they don't have a choice, and will even act like they don't. But the reality is that there are plenty of new vehicles without subscriptions or in-app purchases, and even more used vehicles without them. Those are all options. With this process, it's always a series of choices, where choosing what the company wants is slightly easier than not choosing it, but it's still a choice.

scottLobster 2y ago
For now. Give it a few decades when all those used cars are no longer on the market. We're already entering the age where media is solely released on streaming platforms with no legal physical copies ever produced, let alone available to consumers. Cars will go much the same way. The only way to counter it would be some kind of legally enforceable "right to ownership", which could be argued is the next step after "right to repair". Relying on consumer choice is a libertarian fantasy, right up there with corporate self-regulation. Yes, both exist and have substantial impacts, but they lack the teeth to create sustainable economic systems that support a prosperous middle class. Only well-written government regulation can do the latter.
- karaterobot 2y ago
  If you give up in advance of an expected loss, you create that loss, whether your expectation was right or wrong. On the other hand, if people didn't buy these vehicles, the companies who sell them would have to stop or be outcompeted. If, in the future, companies again try the same tactic, rinse and repeat until they go away. I think we both agree about what the outcome will be, but I am placing much of the blame on the above attitude and behavior by consumers, rather than on some sort of invisible force of the universe that leads towards enshittification. We're the enshittifiers.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    You can't rely on uncoordinated action from individual consumers to solve a problem that is being created by coordinated, collaborating companies. If BMW came out with a car that gave you an electric shock every 5 minutes of driving, people would just not buy BMW and the problem would eventually work itself out. But if every car manufacturer slowly introduced it and normalized it, to the point where soon no other alternatives exist, then we'd all just accept it and buy cars that shock us.