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Thanks! Much appreciated. Unfortunately I don't see how 20$ one time fee will works for such a niche app. After commissions and taxes $20 becomes $10. Anywher

by mrtksn 2y ago

Thanks! Much appreciated. Unfortunately I don't see how 20$ one time fee will works for such a niche app. After commissions and taxes $20 becomes $10. Anywhere in the developed world the money required only to survive is at least 2000$, which means I will need to be selling 200 copies every month as long as the app exist only to get basic level of income and accumulating customers that I will have to support the years to come. What happens if the next year sales drop to 100 a month? It will become an abandonware and make me enemies or eat up all my time for nothing. Many years ago I purchased Halide and later it become a subscription app, I felt deceived and still hold grudge and I don't want to be that guy. It's subscriptions right away and have only the people who think that 2$ a month is a fair compensation for the service. One time payment is either paying for abandonware, charity or scam. With subscriptions, it's a service. It's the best for everyone. Some people associate it with greed but I don't agree that expecting getting paid for work is greedy.

dijit 2y ago
Are you implying that developing this software and maintaining it is a full time job? I'm not saying it's not, I'm actually curious. If it is indeed a full time job I don't think it's worth the time investment required to be perfectly honest. :\
- mrtksn 2y ago
  It is a full time job even when you have a single user, you can't just get the payment deliver the app forget about it. It doesn't work like that, bugs happen the environment changes etc. People don't simply shrug and go buy a new software, they expect the thing get fixed.
  - dijit 2y ago
    But do you have to work on the program for forty hours a week or four?
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      How much do you think is my fair price? I will leave it here because it's weird to higgle on it. If I'm going to be "on call" I expect to get paid and I don't think this is greedy or unreasonable.
      - dijit 2y ago
        the going rate for a freelancer is $100/hr in my part of the world, but you can check your going rate. You can calculate your expected baseline yearly sales from this, based on how many hours you expect to work bugfixing and improving things on average per year. You can timebox the work- having a half-dozen services like this is exactly how Panic Inc. came to mass prominence. Everything depends on the actual amount of time you have to spend on the app, nobody is asking for minimum wage work, that's totally not fair; but perhaps expecting this single project to support you full time is unlikely. The upshot is that if you're more successful than your baseline, that's "profit", and it's unbounded.
        mrtksn 2y ago
        I think you should just release an app that does just that at your rates.
        dijit 2y ago
        Who says I haven't?
        mrtksn 2y ago
        Good for you then.
        dmitrygr 2y ago
        https://github.com/milgra/airpodssoundqualityfixer https://github.com/milgra/airpodssoundqualityfixer
crazygringo 2y ago
> I will need to be selling 200 copies every month as long as the app exist only to get basic level of income First of all, it's probably an unrealistic expectation that a small utility like this should be able to provide you with a basic level of income. Second, in terms of pricing, you seem to be trying to make moral arguments about greed and scams here. But you should simply be realistic about the demand curve, and try to maximize your profit. If there are a lot more people who would buy this as a one-time purchase than as a subscription, you'll be losing money going the subscription route.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  I'm not really interested in maximizing my profit, I simply don't want a burden. If people like it, use it then they pay for it and I take care of the app and if not the project dies off without me having to support potentially thousands of customers for years to come.
Flowsion 2y ago
I can understand this logic, but does every app generate enough revenue to sustain a developer full-time? I would think that some niche apps are able to bring in solid revenue for the amount of work put in. I'm unsure how much time would go into general upkeep and management. Could some of the others suggestions here work, asking users to pay for future updates? I'm in the same camp as most of these users. I have this problem while using Discord and a game on STEAM (Counter-Strike). The mic quality is degraded heavily and I would be more than happy to pay a one-time fee. But I do not like adding too many subscriptions, no matter the cost, especially for apps that I could see myself requiring no serious updates unless I upgraded my physical products.
- olliej 2y ago
  I think the issue these days is that so many VC funded companies give away products for free to essentially capture the entire market so no non-VC funded can compete with that, or numerous "free" (ad supported) or in-app-purchases funded competition (the ad supported ones frequently being just direct clones of other peoples work) force the purchase price down below the actual development cost. People now believe apps should be free, or cheap enough that they don't cover the actual costs for people who are doing the actual development costs. I'm not sure what the real path forward for developers in this environment - if you charge the necessary amount you're undercut by separately funded products or ad supported apps, if you charge a "competitive" amount you can't live off it, if you have a subscription that supports ongoing dev people say "I only want to pay a single time". None of this helped when you then have asshole game devs that sell games for $100+, but then throw in constant in app purchases and DLC for basic functionality that used to be part of the game.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    Oh I can't agree more. When the VC money was sponsoring everything, everything's price has become free and today they are recouping their investment and people begin talking about "enshittification". Free(as on free beer) software was simply a predatory practice to shape the market in certain way and prepare it for exploitation.
- 2y ago
luuurker 2y ago
Let me start by saying that I wish you the best of luck and success with the app. With this said, I have many subscriptions that "costs less than a coffee per month", to use a popular excuse. The problem is that I pay $3 here, $5 there, $7 for this, $10 for that... and when I add it all up, it's a lot of coffee, if you know what I mean. And at this point I don't see why I should pay for a program that will work without your intervention while I'm running this macOS version (or even across multiple macOS versions). I'm not using any of your resources/time or costing you any money. I completely understand that you want to be paid for your time if something breaks and you have to fix it, but you don't need a subscription for that. Some apps give you x years or x macOS updates for X dollars. After that, if you want a new update, you pay for another x years/pay for the latest major update (or something like that). If this used any server side stuff or required regular updates, then I would understand the subscription. As it is, it's a bit like Adobe software... I don't need it enough to pay for the subscription.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  > ome apps give you x years or x macOS updates for X dollars. After that, if you want a new update, you pay for another x years/pay for the latest major update (or something like that). I know, I actually like that model too. It's just that there's no straightforward way to implement it. If Apple offered such model, I would pick it at heartbeat. Currently, such a thing will add so much needless implementation complexity to such a simple app. It's just too much of an effort for a side project-turned-commercial-product.
kllrnohj 2y ago
> One time payment is either paying for abandonware, charity or scam. With subscriptions, it's a service. This isn't a service, though. It either does what it says, in which case why do I need to keep paying for it? Or it doesn't, in which case it's just like a warranty claim or similar. There's no ongoing expectations here. It's a product that you're charging service fees for, that's just completely out of whack. Like this genuinely would be better as "abandonware" (read: product) with a single $5-10 charge.
iamtedd 2y ago
I get this app and I will use until my devices no longer receive updates (~7 years). Now I'm stuck giving you (and Apple) money forever. I don't care about any features you may want to add, so the version I originally "buy" is the version that will serve me until I upgrade my hardware. This is the problem with subscriptions for apps without services - If I stop paying, I lose access to what I already have. That sucks. So begins the treadmill of money leaving my pocket and entering yours (and Apple's) for no good reason. I will find it even more grating when whatever features you do add to the app I don't care about and will never use. Just let me pay you for your work and we'll go our separate ways.

by mrtksn 2y ago

dijit 2y ago

Are you implying that developing this software and maintaining it is a full time job? I'm not saying it's not, I'm actually curious. If it is indeed a full time job I don't think it's worth the time investment required to be perfectly honest. :\

mrtksn 2y ago
It is a full time job even when you have a single user, you can't just get the payment deliver the app forget about it. It doesn't work like that, bugs happen the environment changes etc. People don't simply shrug and go buy a new software, they expect the thing get fixed.
- dijit 2y ago
  But do you have to work on the program for forty hours a week or four?
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    How much do you think is my fair price? I will leave it here because it's weird to higgle on it. If I'm going to be "on call" I expect to get paid and I don't think this is greedy or unreasonable.
    - dijit 2y ago
      the going rate for a freelancer is $100/hr in my part of the world, but you can check your going rate. You can calculate your expected baseline yearly sales from this, based on how many hours you expect to work bugfixing and improving things on average per year. You can timebox the work- having a half-dozen services like this is exactly how Panic Inc. came to mass prominence. Everything depends on the actual amount of time you have to spend on the app, nobody is asking for minimum wage work, that's totally not fair; but perhaps expecting this single project to support you full time is unlikely. The upshot is that if you're more successful than your baseline, that's "profit", and it's unbounded.
      - mrtksn 2y ago
        I think you should just release an app that does just that at your rates.
        dijit 2y ago
        Who says I haven't?
        mrtksn 2y ago
        Good for you then.
        dmitrygr 2y ago
        https://github.com/milgra/airpodssoundqualityfixer https://github.com/milgra/airpodssoundqualityfixer

crazygringo 2y ago

> I will need to be selling 200 copies every month as long as the app exist only to get basic level of income First of all, it's probably an unrealistic expectation that a small utility like this should be able to provide you with a basic level of income. Second, in terms of pricing, you seem to be trying to make moral arguments about greed and scams here. But you should simply be realistic about the demand curve, and try to maximize your profit. If there are a lot more people who would buy this as a one-time purchase than as a subscription, you'll be losing money going the subscription route.

mrtksn 2y ago
I'm not really interested in maximizing my profit, I simply don't want a burden. If people like it, use it then they pay for it and I take care of the app and if not the project dies off without me having to support potentially thousands of customers for years to come.

Flowsion 2y ago

I can understand this logic, but does every app generate enough revenue to sustain a developer full-time? I would think that some niche apps are able to bring in solid revenue for the amount of work put in. I'm unsure how much time would go into general upkeep and management. Could some of the others suggestions here work, asking users to pay for future updates? I'm in the same camp as most of these users. I have this problem while using Discord and a game on STEAM (Counter-Strike). The mic quality is degraded heavily and I would be more than happy to pay a one-time fee. But I do not like adding too many subscriptions, no matter the cost, especially for apps that I could see myself requiring no serious updates unless I upgraded my physical products.

olliej 2y ago
I think the issue these days is that so many VC funded companies give away products for free to essentially capture the entire market so no non-VC funded can compete with that, or numerous "free" (ad supported) or in-app-purchases funded competition (the ad supported ones frequently being just direct clones of other peoples work) force the purchase price down below the actual development cost. People now believe apps should be free, or cheap enough that they don't cover the actual costs for people who are doing the actual development costs. I'm not sure what the real path forward for developers in this environment - if you charge the necessary amount you're undercut by separately funded products or ad supported apps, if you charge a "competitive" amount you can't live off it, if you have a subscription that supports ongoing dev people say "I only want to pay a single time". None of this helped when you then have asshole game devs that sell games for $100+, but then throw in constant in app purchases and DLC for basic functionality that used to be part of the game.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  Oh I can't agree more. When the VC money was sponsoring everything, everything's price has become free and today they are recouping their investment and people begin talking about "enshittification". Free(as on free beer) software was simply a predatory practice to shape the market in certain way and prepare it for exploitation.
2y ago

luuurker 2y ago

Let me start by saying that I wish you the best of luck and success with the app. With this said, I have many subscriptions that "costs less than a coffee per month", to use a popular excuse. The problem is that I pay $3 here, $5 there, $7 for this, $10 for that... and when I add it all up, it's a lot of coffee, if you know what I mean. And at this point I don't see why I should pay for a program that will work without your intervention while I'm running this macOS version (or even across multiple macOS versions). I'm not using any of your resources/time or costing you any money. I completely understand that you want to be paid for your time if something breaks and you have to fix it, but you don't need a subscription for that. Some apps give you x years or x macOS updates for X dollars. After that, if you want a new update, you pay for another x years/pay for the latest major update (or something like that). If this used any server side stuff or required regular updates, then I would understand the subscription. As it is, it's a bit like Adobe software... I don't need it enough to pay for the subscription.

mrtksn 2y ago
> ome apps give you x years or x macOS updates for X dollars. After that, if you want a new update, you pay for another x years/pay for the latest major update (or something like that). I know, I actually like that model too. It's just that there's no straightforward way to implement it. If Apple offered such model, I would pick it at heartbeat. Currently, such a thing will add so much needless implementation complexity to such a simple app. It's just too much of an effort for a side project-turned-commercial-product.

kllrnohj 2y ago

> One time payment is either paying for abandonware, charity or scam. With subscriptions, it's a service. This isn't a service, though. It either does what it says, in which case why do I need to keep paying for it? Or it doesn't, in which case it's just like a warranty claim or similar. There's no ongoing expectations here. It's a product that you're charging service fees for, that's just completely out of whack. Like this genuinely would be better as "abandonware" (read: product) with a single $5-10 charge.

iamtedd 2y ago

I get this app and I will use until my devices no longer receive updates (~7 years). Now I'm stuck giving you (and Apple) money forever. I don't care about any features you may want to add, so the version I originally "buy" is the version that will serve me until I upgrade my hardware. This is the problem with subscriptions for apps without services - If I stop paying, I lose access to what I already have. That sucks. So begins the treadmill of money leaving my pocket and entering yours (and Apple's) for no good reason. I will find it even more grating when whatever features you do add to the app I don't care about and will never use. Just let me pay you for your work and we'll go our separate ways.