4 ms·

Yeah, I don't think so. There's no paper trail. Whether it's in person interviews or not, having a "culture fit" isn't what's in the law. Unless, allowing in le

by kurthr 2y ago

Yeah, I don't think so. There's no paper trail. Whether it's in person interviews or not, having a "culture fit" isn't what's in the law. Unless, allowing in legacies is mandated from above and documented, you're gonna have a hard time showing criminal conspiracy. If the form doesn't allow you to put in "legacy" commentary, there will even be "evidence" that it wasn't. If you want to embarrass them, just do it. Spend the capital (political or otherwise) to put it in the media, but pretending it's going to criminal court is kinda out there without some other political motive. Frankly, there are bigger discrimination problems for qualified applicants than legacy for admissions at the most selective colleges. Certainly, nobody is going to prevent "athletic" ability, "extracurricular" experience, or SAT coaching in admissions.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> having a "culture fit" isn't what's in the law Sure, alumni interviews may favor legacy, though if alumni start broadly asking about it I could see legislation targeting that being inspired. > allowing in legacies is mandated from above and documented, you're gonna have a hard time showing criminal conspiracy OP seemed to suggest creating a dummy variable to stand in for legacy. If that were to happen, and you could find communications basically admitting the purpose of that variable is to evade the law, yes, I could see criminal charges being brought. More pointedly, you're describing an issue common to anti-discrimination law in general.
- kurthr 2y ago
  You seem well versed in this. Has there been a prosecution for academic criminal discrimination or criminal conspiracy to avoid discrimination protection in the last 20 years? I mean there's Title IX, but the Supreme Court has blocked even sex discrimination rules. https://www.npr.org/2024/08/16/nx-s1-5064627/supreme-court-schools https://www.npr.org/2024/08/16/nx-s1-5064627/supreme-court-s...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Has there been a prosecution for academic criminal discrimination or criminal conspiracy to avoid discrimination protection in the last 20 years? I don't think anyone has been doing it. Race-based discrimination was, until recently, legal.
    - kurthr 2y ago
      No one has been prosecuting it, or none of the 6000 some odd universities/colleges have discriminated in the last 20 years? I can believe the former, but not the latter. If it's the former, why do you think they would suddenly start prosecuting now for a difficult to prove criminal conspiracy to allow legacy admissions? Political reasons?
    - lazide 2y ago
      Actually, until very recently race-based discrimination in college admissions was required wasn’t it?
      - kenjackson 2y ago
        It has never been required.
        lazide 2y ago
        It was if they had any interaction with the US Federal Government, which almost all colleges or universities do in various ways. [https://www.oeod.uci.edu/policies/aa_history.php https://www.oeod.uci.edu/policies/aa_history.php] There is still an active executive order requiring all government contractors to do it too. Which includes companies like Google. It’s been a thing since the 70’s - to various degrees of enforcement.
        kenjackson 2y ago
        Can you point to the requirement? I see that it says you can’t discriminate and enforcement mechanisms to document that discrimination isn’t happening.
- microtherion 2y ago
  Here's a perfect example of a college essay turning legacy into culture fit: The reasons that I have for wishing to go to Harvard are several. I feel that Harvard can give me a better background and a better liberal education than any other university. I have always wanted to go there, as I have felt that it is not just another college, but is a university with something definite to offer. Then too, I would like to go to the same college as my father. To be a "Harvard man" is an enviable distinction, and one that I sincerely hope I shall attain. John F. Kennedy's application essay to Harvard, in its entirety (he got accepted, of course).
  - MichaelNolan 2y ago
    I thought you were kidding at first, but here it is https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/jfkpp-002-002#?image_identifier=JFKPP-002-002-p0013 https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/jfkpp-002-0... Bonus points for brevity I suppose. And to be fair, Harvard (and all other colleges) was way less competitive back then. 1930s college and 2024 college are worlds apart in every way.
    - foobarian 2y ago
      > Bonus points for brevity I was just thinking it had a strong Strunk & White-ian vibe!
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        Although it is short, it retains plenty of words that add no value.
  - csa 2y ago
    Fascinating example, but poor comparison. University entrance requirements then were nothing like they are now. An essay like this would get turbo-rejected today, unless they are on the z-list (and JFK probably would be).
serial_dev 2y ago
There is no paper trail so there won’t be many criminal cases… …but there is no paper trail so they might not be able to “fast track” legacy kids into the university so easily, it’s logistically hard to cheat for so many kids during the many steps of the process without creating a ton of evidence. I don’t think it will make the problem go away, but I do think it will reduce the number of legacy rich kids getting accepted, simply because the bar is put higher (for parents’ influence).

by kurthr 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> having a "culture fit" isn't what's in the law Sure, alumni interviews may favor legacy, though if alumni start broadly asking about it I could see legislation targeting that being inspired. > allowing in legacies is mandated from above and documented, you're gonna have a hard time showing criminal conspiracy OP seemed to suggest creating a dummy variable to stand in for legacy. If that were to happen, and you could find communications basically admitting the purpose of that variable is to evade the law, yes, I could see criminal charges being brought. More pointedly, you're describing an issue common to anti-discrimination law in general.

kurthr 2y ago
You seem well versed in this. Has there been a prosecution for academic criminal discrimination or criminal conspiracy to avoid discrimination protection in the last 20 years? I mean there's Title IX, but the Supreme Court has blocked even sex discrimination rules. https://www.npr.org/2024/08/16/nx-s1-5064627/supreme-court-schools https://www.npr.org/2024/08/16/nx-s1-5064627/supreme-court-s...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Has there been a prosecution for academic criminal discrimination or criminal conspiracy to avoid discrimination protection in the last 20 years? I don't think anyone has been doing it. Race-based discrimination was, until recently, legal.
  - kurthr 2y ago
    No one has been prosecuting it, or none of the 6000 some odd universities/colleges have discriminated in the last 20 years? I can believe the former, but not the latter. If it's the former, why do you think they would suddenly start prosecuting now for a difficult to prove criminal conspiracy to allow legacy admissions? Political reasons?
  - lazide 2y ago
    Actually, until very recently race-based discrimination in college admissions was required wasn’t it?
    - kenjackson 2y ago
      It has never been required.
      - lazide 2y ago
        It was if they had any interaction with the US Federal Government, which almost all colleges or universities do in various ways. [https://www.oeod.uci.edu/policies/aa_history.php https://www.oeod.uci.edu/policies/aa_history.php] There is still an active executive order requiring all government contractors to do it too. Which includes companies like Google. It’s been a thing since the 70’s - to various degrees of enforcement.
        kenjackson 2y ago
        Can you point to the requirement? I see that it says you can’t discriminate and enforcement mechanisms to document that discrimination isn’t happening.
microtherion 2y ago
Here's a perfect example of a college essay turning legacy into culture fit: The reasons that I have for wishing to go to Harvard are several. I feel that Harvard can give me a better background and a better liberal education than any other university. I have always wanted to go there, as I have felt that it is not just another college, but is a university with something definite to offer. Then too, I would like to go to the same college as my father. To be a "Harvard man" is an enviable distinction, and one that I sincerely hope I shall attain. John F. Kennedy's application essay to Harvard, in its entirety (he got accepted, of course).
- MichaelNolan 2y ago
  I thought you were kidding at first, but here it is https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/jfkpp-002-002#?image_identifier=JFKPP-002-002-p0013 https://www.jfklibrary.org/asset-viewer/archives/jfkpp-002-0... Bonus points for brevity I suppose. And to be fair, Harvard (and all other colleges) was way less competitive back then. 1930s college and 2024 college are worlds apart in every way.
  - foobarian 2y ago
    > Bonus points for brevity I was just thinking it had a strong Strunk & White-ian vibe!
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Although it is short, it retains plenty of words that add no value.
- csa 2y ago
  Fascinating example, but poor comparison. University entrance requirements then were nothing like they are now. An essay like this would get turbo-rejected today, unless they are on the z-list (and JFK probably would be).

serial_dev 2y ago

There is no paper trail so there won’t be many criminal cases… …but there is no paper trail so they might not be able to “fast track” legacy kids into the university so easily, it’s logistically hard to cheat for so many kids during the many steps of the process without creating a ton of evidence. I don’t think it will make the problem go away, but I do think it will reduce the number of legacy rich kids getting accepted, simply because the bar is put higher (for parents’ influence).