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go is a game with an obvious score function which can be used to construct a loss, well defined moves, and total visibility of the board. It is less obvious how
by fooblaster 2y ago
go is a game with an obvious score function which can be used to construct a loss, well defined moves, and total visibility of the board. It is less obvious how to write a score for creativity in art or music, nor does it have well defined bounds on what is considered a legitimate construct of either. Just because computing hardware lets you multiple matrices faster does not mean we have the means to solve all problems.
- gcanyon 2y ago> go is a game with an obvious score function which can be used to construct a loss, well defined moves, and total visibility of the board This is literally the opposite of true, and the main reason go computers were getting destroyed by humans for almost twenty years after deep blue took down Kasparov.
- AnIrishDuck 2y agoYes, technically. But the broader point is true. Go is a game with well-defined win and loss conditions that can be automatically evaluated. This is critical for game-clock-eons of unsupervised self-play, which by most accounts is how AlphaGo (and other systems like AlphaZero) made the leap to superhuman levels of play. But it is entirely different from subjective endeavors like writing, music, and art. How do you score one automatically generated composition vs another? Where is the loss function?
- gcanyon 2y agoStipulating up front that this is a question for a lead scientist at OpenAI: I could see a scoring function looking at essays in the New York Times vs. the National Enquirer and finding a way to generalize from there. Similarly for the top 40 hit songs vs <everything else>.
- bongodongobob 2y agoCompletely backwards. There is no obvious score function for Go. That's how AlphaGo broke through, it was able to figure out a scoring method to actually accurately gauge how well it was doing so it could learn and improve.
- fooblaster 2y agoIf what you are saying is true, how does anyone know the game is over? there is a clear win condition. I know that just like with chess, knowing the current vAlue of the board is difficult, but win or loss is clear.
- gcanyon 2y agoIt is often the case that beginning go players don’t know when to quit. The question becomes more subtle as the players increase in skill. It is never as simple as “checkmate” — think more in terms of “mate in three”, except it’s more like “mate in 5-10” in several locations across the board.
- bongodongobob 2y agoWell yeah, every game has a clear win condition. But for chess and go, who is better or winning isn't as straightforward, especially for go.