4 ms·

The myth of the heavy sword is a stupid one, and I was convinced that it had died out a long time ago. I'm not sure who still believes otherwise? DnD's weights

by elric 2y ago

The myth of the heavy sword is a stupid one, and I was convinced that it had died out a long time ago. I'm not sure who still believes otherwise? DnD's weights are hardly a reference, as those weights are important for the mechanics of the game, not for historical accuracy. The comments regarding Game of Thrones blurb don't make much sense either. At no point in that quote does Syrio claim that Westerosi swords are unreasonably heavy or that knights are clumsy. But a knight in full plate with a longsword is certainly much less agile than someone with a rapier and no armour.

digging 2y ago
> But a knight in full plate with a longsword is certainly much less agile than someone with a rapier and no armour. No, that's not really true either.
- hermitcrab 2y ago
  IIRC a full set of plate armour weighs about 60lbs. How is that not going to make you less agile (no matter how well made)? And yes, I understand the old trope about knights lumbering around, not being able to get up if they fell over and not being about to mount a horse is all garbage. And that 60lbs is roughly what a modern combat soldier carries. But it is still 60lbs!
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    A huge number of people are 60lbs or more overweight and they still get around fairly well.
    - hermitcrab 2y ago
      'get around fairly well' != 'agile' ;0)
      - digging 2y ago
        A huge number of people are 60lbs or more overweight and are still very agile, too. It's silly to keep picking this fight this way.
        hermitcrab 2y ago
        Perhaps we don't agree on what 'agile' means.
        digging 2y ago
        Then you should define what it means to you. I've given enough in my other reply.
  - digging 2y ago
    > How is that not going to make you less agile (no matter how well made)? Because the weight is distributed and carefully balanced and the parts are fitted to the wearer's body. It does in fact matter how it's made, it's not a backpack. I admit I could have put more effort into my response, but at this point you're not going to spend 30 seconds to even look it up? Here is a video of people doing cartwheels in full plate armor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc The difference in agility seems marginal if it exists at all. I would certainly advise anyone, if they ever had to bet their life on it, to assume a fully armored foe is not inhibited in their agility. Maybe crawl into a very tight space if you must.
  - Sander_Marechal 2y ago
    A decent well made plate armour is a lot less than than. 15-ish kilo, so 30-ish lbs?
  - jerlam 2y ago
    60 pounds would be low for a modern soldier - it's gotten up to 120 pounds or more in recent wars: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a25644619/soldier-weight/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a25644619...
aldarion 2y ago
Syrio literally says that knight's swordsmanship is "hacking and hammering": “Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight’s dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo’s dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die.” He took a step backward, raised his own wooden blade. “Now you will try to strike me.” Which is a direct reference to the myth of heavy and unweildy longsword. Whether George Martin himself believes the myth or merely made Syrio misinformed, is anybody's guess. Also, no, knight in full plate with a longsword is not certainly much less agile than someone with a rapier and no armor. He will be somewhat less agile... if the level of training is equal... but neither longsword nor armor are so heavy that they will significantly limit agility. Main issue with full suit of plate is actually overheating and tiring out sooner due to added weight and insulation (and possibly restricted breathing depending on the helmet).
- EnergyAmy 2y ago
  That sounds more like GRRM is writing Syrio as saying their swordfighting is inelegant, not that the weapons themselves are heavy. From what I understand, there was often a lot of hacking and hammering to get through the armor, even if the weapons were light. From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword > Half-sword is used for leverage advantage when wrestling with the sword, as well as for delivering a more accurate and powerful thrust. Both of these are critical when fighting in plate armour because a slice or a cleaving blow from a sword is virtually useless against iron or steel plate.
  - aldarion 2y ago
    That is not hacking and hammering, though - not even close. What it in fact describes is grabbing the sword by the blade in order to achieve fine control, with the goal of thrusting through gaps in armor.

by elric 2y ago

digging 2y ago

> But a knight in full plate with a longsword is certainly much less agile than someone with a rapier and no armour. No, that's not really true either.

hermitcrab 2y ago
IIRC a full set of plate armour weighs about 60lbs. How is that not going to make you less agile (no matter how well made)? And yes, I understand the old trope about knights lumbering around, not being able to get up if they fell over and not being about to mount a horse is all garbage. And that 60lbs is roughly what a modern combat soldier carries. But it is still 60lbs!
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  A huge number of people are 60lbs or more overweight and they still get around fairly well.
  - hermitcrab 2y ago
    'get around fairly well' != 'agile' ;0)
    - digging 2y ago
      A huge number of people are 60lbs or more overweight and are still very agile, too. It's silly to keep picking this fight this way.
      - hermitcrab 2y ago
        Perhaps we don't agree on what 'agile' means.
        digging 2y ago
        Then you should define what it means to you. I've given enough in my other reply.
- digging 2y ago
  > How is that not going to make you less agile (no matter how well made)? Because the weight is distributed and carefully balanced and the parts are fitted to the wearer's body. It does in fact matter how it's made, it's not a backpack. I admit I could have put more effort into my response, but at this point you're not going to spend 30 seconds to even look it up? Here is a video of people doing cartwheels in full plate armor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc The difference in agility seems marginal if it exists at all. I would certainly advise anyone, if they ever had to bet their life on it, to assume a fully armored foe is not inhibited in their agility. Maybe crawl into a very tight space if you must.
- Sander_Marechal 2y ago
  A decent well made plate armour is a lot less than than. 15-ish kilo, so 30-ish lbs?
- jerlam 2y ago
  60 pounds would be low for a modern soldier - it's gotten up to 120 pounds or more in recent wars: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a25644619/soldier-weight/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a25644619...

aldarion 2y ago

Syrio literally says that knight's swordsmanship is "hacking and hammering": “Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight’s dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo’s dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die.” He took a step backward, raised his own wooden blade. “Now you will try to strike me.” Which is a direct reference to the myth of heavy and unweildy longsword. Whether George Martin himself believes the myth or merely made Syrio misinformed, is anybody's guess. Also, no, knight in full plate with a longsword is not certainly much less agile than someone with a rapier and no armor. He will be somewhat less agile... if the level of training is equal... but neither longsword nor armor are so heavy that they will significantly limit agility. Main issue with full suit of plate is actually overheating and tiring out sooner due to added weight and insulation (and possibly restricted breathing depending on the helmet).

EnergyAmy 2y ago
That sounds more like GRRM is writing Syrio as saying their swordfighting is inelegant, not that the weapons themselves are heavy. From what I understand, there was often a lot of hacking and hammering to get through the armor, even if the weapons were light. From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword > Half-sword is used for leverage advantage when wrestling with the sword, as well as for delivering a more accurate and powerful thrust. Both of these are critical when fighting in plate armour because a slice or a cleaving blow from a sword is virtually useless against iron or steel plate.
- aldarion 2y ago
  That is not hacking and hammering, though - not even close. What it in fact describes is grabbing the sword by the blade in order to achieve fine control, with the goal of thrusting through gaps in armor.