4 ms·

Thank God we have scientists rallying against Wolfram, Penrose, et al. It would be great if next-up, you guys actually had the guts to challenge your _actual_ p

by tucnak 2y ago

Thank God we have scientists rallying against Wolfram, Penrose, et al. It would be great if next-up, you guys actually had the guts to challenge your _actual_ peers, who are turning tricks of mainstream scientific literature at the highest levels of academia. Bread and butter. Western blot party for everyone!

PaulHoule 2y ago
Penrose is a scientist gone crackpot in the tradition of Josephson. His "I can do math because I am a thetan" shtick is based on a ridiculous misunderstanding of Godel since Godel's theorems don't apply to a piece of wetware which is by no means consistent or complete. (e.g. if he does math by being a thetan why can't he solve Collatz?) Wolfram is something else. A New Kind of Science isn't really wrong yet it's not really right. It's sad to see him spend decades looking for more systems like Rule 30 and finding systems that are similar but not so simple, not so pretty, and he never gets an insight out of it that really applies to anything else. He's like a crackpot in that he works tirelessly on a research program that's unconnected to anything else anyone else is working on, however. Maybe that comes out of being rich and not having to apply for grants. On the other hand, there are major fields of physics, such as string theory, which very well be based on a delusion, yet in that case it is a shared delusion. In the pandemic he went on a vainglorious and grandiose quest for a "theory of everything" yet he has the good judgement to base it on causal networks which I think is one of the best grounded approaches to quantum gravity (e.g. given two points in space-time aren't they spacelike or timelike or lightlike and in the last two cases isn't one of them in the future or past of the other?)
- tucnak 2y ago
  I'm sure Wolfram is for real; it's just funny how supposed scientists would jump out of their trousers to criticise him, all the while happily ignoring fraud in their immediately field, their own faculties, etc. Talk spineless. Then the next big fraud is revealed, and they suddenly go back to the usual pikachu face routine. Surprise!
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    Yeah, but talking about grand unification of any kind in 2024 seems to be besides the point. Newton postulated a relationship between physics on Earth and the cosmos, specifically that a single theory of gravity explains objects falling here and the moon orbiting around the Earth, planets going around the Sun, etc. Astronomical measurements show quite clearly that there either (1) there is a sector of hidden particles and fields responsible for most of the mass of the universe or (2) gravity and/or inertia (two sides of the same coin?) don't behave the same way at the galaxy scale as the solar system scale. Either way Newton's connection has broken down, so the physics we know is not the physics of the real world. The microphysics of MOND are baffling; it's not hard to imagine some particles and fields that explain dark matter but impossible to prove that any of them are for real unless we get a breakthrough in experiment that can rule some of them out.
    - tucnak 2y ago
      Thank you, it's always interesting to hear physicists talk about this stuff :-)
- teekert 2y ago
  You're downvoted but Penrose has really deteriorated indeed, he's way out of his field of expertise nowadays. It's not science, the people downvoting you are probably not scientists and need to think again about who they trust. The original article makes huge leaps from quantum effects in Microtubuli to consciousness with no real science in between. Here is a real scientist on this mumbo jumbo [0]. Please don't take any of that "medicine should interact with your body on a quantum vibration level, a rock can be medicine"-crap, which is the category that TFA we are discussing falls into. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wqUCATYUA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wqUCATYUA "My brain tells me my brain is special, and my brain is an excellent measurement device of specialness! Now all we need is science to prove my brain was right about my brain! After all: Quantum mechanics is weird. Consciousness is weird. There must be a relation!"
- bbor 2y ago
  If you find the time, could you clarify what you mean by the "thetan" comment? Isn't that the Scientology demon analogue? If you Kagi "penrose thetan" the only real result is this thread (the internet is amazing...) and neither "thetan" nor "scientolog" appear on his Wikipedia page. EDIT: I think the comment is discussing this weird take on Godel, but I'm not sure on the "thetan" reference, still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose%E2%80%93Lucas_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose%E2%80%93Lucas_argument
- qrybam 2y ago
  This take is less than generous to Penrose. In a recent debate (which was less than fruitful as debates go), Penrose said this regarding this paper: > Moderator: ... saying that these effects are now experimentally established, so I thought Sir Roger must now be triumphant, the experiments are now in favour, so I'm very curious where you now are with your theory. > Penrose: Well, as far as experiments are concerned, I think one has to be a bit cautious about it all, so I'm not an expert on experiments, but I certainly have a colleague who, although the recent experiments to refer to seem to be supportive of the point of view, I'm putting forward, he was a bit skeptical, thinking it might be a bit wishful thinking experiments, so I just have a neutral position on this, I can't really judge the experiments. > And exactly how one might make experimental observations to see whether the argument would have to be that one has quantum effects in microtubules, these little tiny parts of cells, and this has been the argument for quite a long time, ever since I had a communication from Stuart Hammeroff. Source: Quantum Consciousness Debate: Does the Wave Function Actually Exist? | Penrose, Faggin & Kastrup @ 5m55s (https://youtu.be/0nOtLj8UYCw?t=347 https://youtu.be/0nOtLj8UYCw?t=347)
teekert 2y ago
Those scandals are an absolute disgrace indeed, but please remember it's a very small percentage of scientists involved (I hope!). I have to say it makes me feel bad that as soon as I identify as a biologist, I get smacked in the face with western blot scandals. My god, the damage these frauds have done to our reputation. I'm so sorry for it.

by tucnak 2y ago

PaulHoule 2y ago

Penrose is a scientist gone crackpot in the tradition of Josephson. His "I can do math because I am a thetan" shtick is based on a ridiculous misunderstanding of Godel since Godel's theorems don't apply to a piece of wetware which is by no means consistent or complete. (e.g. if he does math by being a thetan why can't he solve Collatz?) Wolfram is something else. A New Kind of Science isn't really wrong yet it's not really right. It's sad to see him spend decades looking for more systems like Rule 30 and finding systems that are similar but not so simple, not so pretty, and he never gets an insight out of it that really applies to anything else. He's like a crackpot in that he works tirelessly on a research program that's unconnected to anything else anyone else is working on, however. Maybe that comes out of being rich and not having to apply for grants. On the other hand, there are major fields of physics, such as string theory, which very well be based on a delusion, yet in that case it is a shared delusion. In the pandemic he went on a vainglorious and grandiose quest for a "theory of everything" yet he has the good judgement to base it on causal networks which I think is one of the best grounded approaches to quantum gravity (e.g. given two points in space-time aren't they spacelike or timelike or lightlike and in the last two cases isn't one of them in the future or past of the other?)

tucnak 2y ago
I'm sure Wolfram is for real; it's just funny how supposed scientists would jump out of their trousers to criticise him, all the while happily ignoring fraud in their immediately field, their own faculties, etc. Talk spineless. Then the next big fraud is revealed, and they suddenly go back to the usual pikachu face routine. Surprise!
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  Yeah, but talking about grand unification of any kind in 2024 seems to be besides the point. Newton postulated a relationship between physics on Earth and the cosmos, specifically that a single theory of gravity explains objects falling here and the moon orbiting around the Earth, planets going around the Sun, etc. Astronomical measurements show quite clearly that there either (1) there is a sector of hidden particles and fields responsible for most of the mass of the universe or (2) gravity and/or inertia (two sides of the same coin?) don't behave the same way at the galaxy scale as the solar system scale. Either way Newton's connection has broken down, so the physics we know is not the physics of the real world. The microphysics of MOND are baffling; it's not hard to imagine some particles and fields that explain dark matter but impossible to prove that any of them are for real unless we get a breakthrough in experiment that can rule some of them out.
  - tucnak 2y ago
    Thank you, it's always interesting to hear physicists talk about this stuff :-)
teekert 2y ago
You're downvoted but Penrose has really deteriorated indeed, he's way out of his field of expertise nowadays. It's not science, the people downvoting you are probably not scientists and need to think again about who they trust. The original article makes huge leaps from quantum effects in Microtubuli to consciousness with no real science in between. Here is a real scientist on this mumbo jumbo [0]. Please don't take any of that "medicine should interact with your body on a quantum vibration level, a rock can be medicine"-crap, which is the category that TFA we are discussing falls into. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wqUCATYUA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1wqUCATYUA "My brain tells me my brain is special, and my brain is an excellent measurement device of specialness! Now all we need is science to prove my brain was right about my brain! After all: Quantum mechanics is weird. Consciousness is weird. There must be a relation!"
bbor 2y ago
If you find the time, could you clarify what you mean by the "thetan" comment? Isn't that the Scientology demon analogue? If you Kagi "penrose thetan" the only real result is this thread (the internet is amazing...) and neither "thetan" nor "scientolog" appear on his Wikipedia page. EDIT: I think the comment is discussing this weird take on Godel, but I'm not sure on the "thetan" reference, still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose%E2%80%93Lucas_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penrose%E2%80%93Lucas_argument
qrybam 2y ago
This take is less than generous to Penrose. In a recent debate (which was less than fruitful as debates go), Penrose said this regarding this paper: > Moderator: ... saying that these effects are now experimentally established, so I thought Sir Roger must now be triumphant, the experiments are now in favour, so I'm very curious where you now are with your theory. > Penrose: Well, as far as experiments are concerned, I think one has to be a bit cautious about it all, so I'm not an expert on experiments, but I certainly have a colleague who, although the recent experiments to refer to seem to be supportive of the point of view, I'm putting forward, he was a bit skeptical, thinking it might be a bit wishful thinking experiments, so I just have a neutral position on this, I can't really judge the experiments. > And exactly how one might make experimental observations to see whether the argument would have to be that one has quantum effects in microtubules, these little tiny parts of cells, and this has been the argument for quite a long time, ever since I had a communication from Stuart Hammeroff. Source: Quantum Consciousness Debate: Does the Wave Function Actually Exist? | Penrose, Faggin & Kastrup @ 5m55s (https://youtu.be/0nOtLj8UYCw?t=347 https://youtu.be/0nOtLj8UYCw?t=347)

teekert 2y ago

Those scandals are an absolute disgrace indeed, but please remember it's a very small percentage of scientists involved (I hope!). I have to say it makes me feel bad that as soon as I identify as a biologist, I get smacked in the face with western blot scandals. My god, the damage these frauds have done to our reputation. I'm so sorry for it.