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It's more about how people define the term. I don't think I've seen the position made disingenuously. Most people I've spoken to think of creole as a mixed lan
by ycombinete 2y ago
It's more about how people define the term. I don't think I've seen the position made disingenuously.
Most people I've spoken to think of creole as a mixed language that becomes it's own language. To them that describes English and how it came to be.
Even if you require colonisation to be part of it the position can stand. The Anglo-Saxon's colonisation by the Romans and the Normans are a big part of how the English mixture was formed.
If your definition requires an indigenous, non-European, language being modified by contact with a European coloniser's language. Then sure, English isn't a creole language. But I don't think that's how most people use the term creole colloquially.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago> The Anglo-Saxon's colonisation by the Romans That never happened; it was the other way around.
- ithkuil 2y agoGermanic conquerors may be first partially reverse-colonized by the culture they conquered (which heavily romanized with Celtic substrate) and then later further colonized by norman conquerors who were themselves carriers of the remnants of the Roman cultural heritage. Germanic people (franks) conquered Gaul and you wouldn't call modern french a Germanic language. Linguistic dynamics are utterly fascinating and complex
- ycombinete 2y agoI've been listening to The Rest is History podcast lately, and a lot of this happened in Islam via converts. Tom Holland was saying that many now fundamental Islamic practices were imported into the faith via converts. For example such as praying 5 times a day was apparently a Zoroastrian practice.
- ithkuil 2y agoThe same thing happened to many Cristian practices. The Eucharist may have originated in the cult of Dionysus. Probably also Christmas is also a tradition that bears the roots of a pre-christian festivity that has been merged with / subsumed in Christian tradition
- fch42 2y agoSlightly off-topic, but for the Frankish/French/German evolution, this is usually considered a "marker": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaths_of_Strasbourg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oaths_of_Strasbourg I'm not sure if any such "foundational" documents exist for English.
- defrost 2y agoYou're going to have to explain how fifth century Germanic settlers in Britain were colonised by the Romans who arrived in Britain four centuries earlier and were largely a spent force by the time the Germans rolled in ...
- ycombinete 2y agoThanks, I'd have a hard time doing that. I got the history reversed. Dang, and it's too late for me to add an edit now as well. I think the broad point still stands, in spite of that error.