7 ms·

It's an IDE. If you need to edit your code somewhere else, there's a billion other IDEs and text editors, as you pointed out. A guitar doesn't make the musicia

It's an IDE. If you need to edit your code somewhere else, there's a billion other IDEs and text editors, as you pointed out. A guitar doesn't make the musician, and the hammer doesn't make the carpenter. There's specific skill with being able to use tools well, but that's not what makes a programmer, guitarist or carpenter valuable.

wiseowise 2y ago
> A guitar doesn't make the musician, and the hammer doesn't make the carpenter. Is that why famous guitarists play only on specific expensive brands and professional carpenters have favorite instruments?
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > Is that why famous guitarists play only on specific expensive brands... But that isn't true. Lots of famous guitarists play, and love, the cheap guitar they had before they made it big. Yeah they own lots of expensive guitars (because they like collecting guitars and are rich enough to do it). But they don't only play those.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  Sure we all have our favorite tools, but if something happened to code, we could adapt to one of the other options in a fortnight.
- onion2k 2y ago
  There's nothing wrong with having a favorite. That's not the same as only being able to use that specific brand. A good guitarist can play any good instrument well, just as a good developer should be able to write good software in an IDE that isn't their preferred one. The favorite tool just makes them a bit better; it isn't required to do the job.
- wcrossbow 2y ago
  Famous guitarists mostly only play specific expensive brands because they are endorsed by them. Any professional musician can make the cheapest of instruments sound really good. Maybe a note is missed here or there and the sound is not as good as it could be but it will still be way way better than an average player. Here is Satriani playing on a terribly setup guitar [1] His only comment at the end? Oh, that was a little painful. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZjVZLsU6s&t=20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZjVZLsU6s&t=20s
- iLemming 2y ago
  Although it is an interesting thought experiment, to a certain degree, I don't think it's right to compare musical instruments and IDEs. IDEs are usually far more complex due to their vast feature sets and constant evolution. If guitars evolved and increased in complexity at the same rate as IDEs, we would've seen something absurd like James Hetfield wielding a 150-string monster guitar. IDEs have become incredibly complex tools with features that go far beyond the original concept of text editing, while guitars have remained relatively consistent in their core design and function over decades. We don't have to keep practicing typing "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" over and over again to master an IDE, while you have to play same tunes again and again to become a virtuoso. Experienced musicians often have a broader, more adaptable skill set and can change instruments, while IDE users might be more "locked in" to their preferred environment for various reasons. I agree with your sentiment though - good programmers are good not because they've mastered their tools - they chose to master their tools because they are good programmers.
  - kragen 2y ago
    > a 150-string monster guitar almost all pianos have more strings than that; the bottom octave or so have two strings each and the rest of the keys have three strings each, for a total of somewhere around 250 strings. pipe organs are routinely significantly more complex than that. but a lot of the elaboration in musical instruments doesn't take the form of increasing the number of parts; instead we have things like special varnishes, holes cut in particular shapes, special alloys for strings, tweaked electronic circuit designs, tweaked magnetic pickup designs, etc. i'm not sure it would be easier for a random person to learn how to make a stratocaster-competitive electric guitar than it would be for them to learn how to write an emacs-competitive ide as for lazy dogs, i think it's common for both programmers and musicians to practice etudes, not just for instrument mastery (which is only a small part of the problem both in programming and in music). a typing class in eighth grade was enormously helpful to me in programming even though, as everyone knows, typing is only rarely the bottleneck in programming. and i think it's pretty common for programmers to spend time on practicing the effective use of one ide feature or another, watch screencasts of other programmers using them, buy books about particular ides, etc. check out https://www.vimgolf.com/challenges/9v0062d0773d000000000225 https://www.vimgolf.com/challenges/9v0062d0773d000000000225 http://vimcasts.org/ http://vimcasts.org/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDIQ17T3sRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDIQ17T3sRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrBHohIgQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrBHohIgQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09i_hoFdd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09i_hoFdd0 etc.
- coliveira 2y ago
  For famous guitar players: they play guitars that pay them (endorsements). They basically don't need to buy anything because guitar brands will offer them customized instruments. It has nothing to do with how much these guitar cost.
kragen 2y ago
much of what you learn programming in an ide is how to program, but some of it is how to use the ide, and it's common for programmers to keep using the same ide for decades as a result i still have some keybindings in emacs from when i used visual c++ last millennium, and i'm probably using emacs in significant part because i started using lugaru epsilon in about 01989. since then i've also used vi, vim, idea, eclipse, nedit, and the f83 editor, but i keep ending up back in emacs sort of by default. and i think my level of flexibility on this count is far above average see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 for a more in-depth exploration of this
cruffle_duffle 2y ago
> A guitar doesn't make the musician, and the hammer doesn't make the carpenter. A good guitar player or a good carpenter sure as shit know a good tool from a bad tool. Good tools are force multipliers and can can make somebody much better than without the tool. Plus bad tools can actively keep people away from learning new things. A shitty soldering iron can absolutely convince somebody they suck at soldering. Sure a pro can make use of a shitty soldering iron but they won’t do it willingly and their output will be subpar. Same with cooking and bad knives. Same with anything. The argument that “tools don’t make somebody good” is pretty silly. They absolutely do.
- CrimsonCape 2y ago
  Remember folks, when Apple says that a video they present is "shot on iPhone" it comes with many many many disclaimers.
- gregmac 2y ago
  > The argument that “tools don’t make somebody good” is pretty silly. They absolutely do. I disagree, but only because I'd rephrase what you're saying as "good tools are force multipliers for skilled people". You can give a beginner musician the most expensive guitar rig, and they'll still sound like a beginner. I also never said what you're arguing against. The GP was essentially complaining that using vscode would hamstring their career because their skill would be in something Microsoft could take away. What I was trying to say is the reason programmers get paid isn't because they're good at using their IDE, it's because they're good at programming. I believe the GP's concern is misplaced. Consider: Do you go to a restaurant because their chef uses expensive high-end knives, or because they have good food?
  - kragen 2y ago
    that is not what i was complaining about, essentially or otherwise; you can resolve your unfortunate confusion by reading https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695702, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699450, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695744, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512, or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695764, all of which i posted before your comment above in which you baselessly attribute to me the most brain-damaged knuckle-dragging strawman viewpoint possible i wrote one of those comments specifically in response to your comment, in order to correct your misreading of mine, so you really have no excuse whatsoever for not having read it
fennecfoxy 2y ago
That's a ridiculous statement imo, there's a reason that AI researcher from meta was all like "come back to me when you have 10,000 H100 GPUs". Oh, I'm sorry. The tools don't matter.

wiseowise 2y ago

> A guitar doesn't make the musician, and the hammer doesn't make the carpenter. Is that why famous guitarists play only on specific expensive brands and professional carpenters have favorite instruments?

bigstrat2003 2y ago
> Is that why famous guitarists play only on specific expensive brands... But that isn't true. Lots of famous guitarists play, and love, the cheap guitar they had before they made it big. Yeah they own lots of expensive guitars (because they like collecting guitars and are rich enough to do it). But they don't only play those.
KeplerBoy 2y ago
Sure we all have our favorite tools, but if something happened to code, we could adapt to one of the other options in a fortnight.
onion2k 2y ago
There's nothing wrong with having a favorite. That's not the same as only being able to use that specific brand. A good guitarist can play any good instrument well, just as a good developer should be able to write good software in an IDE that isn't their preferred one. The favorite tool just makes them a bit better; it isn't required to do the job.
wcrossbow 2y ago
Famous guitarists mostly only play specific expensive brands because they are endorsed by them. Any professional musician can make the cheapest of instruments sound really good. Maybe a note is missed here or there and the sound is not as good as it could be but it will still be way way better than an average player. Here is Satriani playing on a terribly setup guitar [1] His only comment at the end? Oh, that was a little painful. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZjVZLsU6s&t=20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZjVZLsU6s&t=20s
iLemming 2y ago
Although it is an interesting thought experiment, to a certain degree, I don't think it's right to compare musical instruments and IDEs. IDEs are usually far more complex due to their vast feature sets and constant evolution. If guitars evolved and increased in complexity at the same rate as IDEs, we would've seen something absurd like James Hetfield wielding a 150-string monster guitar. IDEs have become incredibly complex tools with features that go far beyond the original concept of text editing, while guitars have remained relatively consistent in their core design and function over decades. We don't have to keep practicing typing "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" over and over again to master an IDE, while you have to play same tunes again and again to become a virtuoso. Experienced musicians often have a broader, more adaptable skill set and can change instruments, while IDE users might be more "locked in" to their preferred environment for various reasons. I agree with your sentiment though - good programmers are good not because they've mastered their tools - they chose to master their tools because they are good programmers.
- kragen 2y ago
  > a 150-string monster guitar almost all pianos have more strings than that; the bottom octave or so have two strings each and the rest of the keys have three strings each, for a total of somewhere around 250 strings. pipe organs are routinely significantly more complex than that. but a lot of the elaboration in musical instruments doesn't take the form of increasing the number of parts; instead we have things like special varnishes, holes cut in particular shapes, special alloys for strings, tweaked electronic circuit designs, tweaked magnetic pickup designs, etc. i'm not sure it would be easier for a random person to learn how to make a stratocaster-competitive electric guitar than it would be for them to learn how to write an emacs-competitive ide as for lazy dogs, i think it's common for both programmers and musicians to practice etudes, not just for instrument mastery (which is only a small part of the problem both in programming and in music). a typing class in eighth grade was enormously helpful to me in programming even though, as everyone knows, typing is only rarely the bottleneck in programming. and i think it's pretty common for programmers to spend time on practicing the effective use of one ide feature or another, watch screencasts of other programmers using them, buy books about particular ides, etc. check out https://www.vimgolf.com/challenges/9v0062d0773d000000000225 https://www.vimgolf.com/challenges/9v0062d0773d000000000225 http://vimcasts.org/ http://vimcasts.org/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDIQ17T3sRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDIQ17T3sRk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrBHohIgQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGrBHohIgQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09i_hoFdd0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p09i_hoFdd0 etc.
coliveira 2y ago
For famous guitar players: they play guitars that pay them (endorsements). They basically don't need to buy anything because guitar brands will offer them customized instruments. It has nothing to do with how much these guitar cost.

kragen 2y ago

much of what you learn programming in an ide is how to program, but some of it is how to use the ide, and it's common for programmers to keep using the same ide for decades as a result i still have some keybindings in emacs from when i used visual c++ last millennium, and i'm probably using emacs in significant part because i started using lugaru epsilon in about 01989. since then i've also used vi, vim, idea, eclipse, nedit, and the f83 editor, but i keep ending up back in emacs sort of by default. and i think my level of flexibility on this count is far above average see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 for a more in-depth exploration of this

cruffle_duffle 2y ago

> A guitar doesn't make the musician, and the hammer doesn't make the carpenter. A good guitar player or a good carpenter sure as shit know a good tool from a bad tool. Good tools are force multipliers and can can make somebody much better than without the tool. Plus bad tools can actively keep people away from learning new things. A shitty soldering iron can absolutely convince somebody they suck at soldering. Sure a pro can make use of a shitty soldering iron but they won’t do it willingly and their output will be subpar. Same with cooking and bad knives. Same with anything. The argument that “tools don’t make somebody good” is pretty silly. They absolutely do.

CrimsonCape 2y ago
Remember folks, when Apple says that a video they present is "shot on iPhone" it comes with many many many disclaimers.
gregmac 2y ago
> The argument that “tools don’t make somebody good” is pretty silly. They absolutely do. I disagree, but only because I'd rephrase what you're saying as "good tools are force multipliers for skilled people". You can give a beginner musician the most expensive guitar rig, and they'll still sound like a beginner. I also never said what you're arguing against. The GP was essentially complaining that using vscode would hamstring their career because their skill would be in something Microsoft could take away. What I was trying to say is the reason programmers get paid isn't because they're good at using their IDE, it's because they're good at programming. I believe the GP's concern is misplaced. Consider: Do you go to a restaurant because their chef uses expensive high-end knives, or because they have good food?
- kragen 2y ago
  that is not what i was complaining about, essentially or otherwise; you can resolve your unfortunate confusion by reading https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695702, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41699450, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695744, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41696512, or https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41695764, all of which i posted before your comment above in which you baselessly attribute to me the most brain-damaged knuckle-dragging strawman viewpoint possible i wrote one of those comments specifically in response to your comment, in order to correct your misreading of mine, so you really have no excuse whatsoever for not having read it

fennecfoxy 2y ago

That's a ridiculous statement imo, there's a reason that AI researcher from meta was all like "come back to me when you have 10,000 H100 GPUs". Oh, I'm sorry. The tools don't matter.