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> Also, ditch the old-timey film-camera look. I don't need 15 physical switches [...]. You really, really do. This may sound contradictory at first, but camera

> Also, ditch the old-timey film-camera look. I don't need 15 physical switches [...]. You really, really do. This may sound contradictory at first, but cameras are operated blind. Even when you’re looking at the camera, you’re not seeing the camera, you’re seeing the subject. Touchscreens suck at blind controls. (That’s not to say touchscreens aren’t useful: choosing the focus point doesn’t exhibit this conflict, even if some prefer a joystick; or if you’re already digging into menus to do something very particular and non-time-sensitive—astrophotography, focus stacking, live compositing—a touchscreen can be better than a D-pad.) Cameras also weigh quite a bit and are supported with the fingers you’re using to operate them, so significantly shifting anything except maybe your right thumb usually means a real risk of dropping the camera. The weight also mounts a two-pronged attack on the size of your touchscreen (I’m assuming a walkaround camera, not weddings or sports): the camera needs to be smaller in order to be lighter, and a large part of its surface area needs to be available for you to grip. So, realistically, you don’t want a camera with a 6-inch touchscreen. In conclusion, please please please don’t take away my physical controls. I know a touchscreen is cheaper, but please don’t. I’ll pay. (Side note: it’s been almost fifteen years, and I still type slower on my Android phone than I used to on the QWERTY keyboard of my Nokia.)

atoav 2y ago
IMO the way black magic does it with their cinema cameras is a great middle ground. Big bright touchscreen that can do all + some physical buttons and dials for often used things. In their early series I had one of those touchsrcreens die on set, but those reliability issues seem to have gone since.
PetitPrince 2y ago
> You really, really do. This may sound contradictory at first, but cameras are operated blind. Even when you’re looking at the camera, you’re not seeing the camera, you’re seeing the subject. I completely agree. Touchscreen interface and touch button are terrible UI in a car for the very same reason: you're looking at the subject/the road, not at your camera/your dashboard.
- m463 2y ago
  > terrible UI in a car I hate that tesla is removing stalks from all cars.
md_ 2y ago
I'm reminded of how long it took Garmin to add touchscreens to their sports watches, and how controversial it was in the user community. If you want to check your heart-rate while sitting at your desk, scrolling through the touchscreen on an Apple Watch is great. But if you're wearing gloves while skiing, or your hands are covered in mud and sweat during a trail run, a touchscreen is not a great option. Garmin's modern sport line now has optional touchscreens, but all major functionality is still accessible via physical controls alone. Their lifestyle models are touchscreen-first, though, which really demonstrates the different requirements for different use-cases. I suspect the same is true in the camera world.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment. You see a potential subject, you "arm" the camera via its power switch instinctively. Your finger goes to front/back dial and you set your parameters depending on the mode, sometimes only paying attention to numbers on the screen or top LCD or viewfinder. You're tracking your subject now. If you need, you select the AF point blindly via the touchscreen (which is off and is a touchpad if you're looking via viewfinder), and fine tune it via the joystick if you need one. Looks good, half-press, AF Locks. You release the shutter and camera clicks. It's done. You turn off your camera blindly and continue walking.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    > When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment. Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway. Show the controls there, including focus points and maybe "exposure" settings. And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination.
    - verandaguy 2y ago
      > Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway Not necessarily. You might be looking through the viewfinder, which will almost always have better contrast in bright sunlight than even a sunlight-readable screen; and even so, if you're using the display, fumbling through a touchscreen interface will always be slower than doing the same with a haptic interface you're used to. > And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination. I think this shows some disconnect over what many photographers are trying to do with their cameras. The goal often isn't to maximize the use of technology to get the best possible photo _technically speaking,_ but to use your own familiarity with techniques and tools to make something great _yourself._ Computational photography is an anti-feature for many photographers. Beyond that; you usually aren't shooting blind unless you choose to. Cameras come with metering (and have done so for many decades now), and it's gotten pretty damn good at telling you when your photo's properly exposed. Newer (<15 years old) cameras will often also have a histogram which gives you even more data than an EV meter.
ninjin 2y ago
Indeed, buttons and dials can be learnt to operate blindly so that you can focus on what really matters: scene and composition. There is a reason why Fujifilm have become the darlings of the semi-pro scene over the last decade. Look at anything in the X-T series and every single parameter that you need to change in a second or lose the shot has a button or dial for it; without them being as bulky as full-fledged SLRs. Phones with touch screens are great for shots where you have a high degree of control over the subject (yourself, food, etc.) and your physical relationship to it. But one must realise that there is a great deal of photography where this will not be the case.
hypercube33 2y ago
Weight is also due to the cameras being built like tanks - they need to be absolutely dependable in any weather and survive drops bangs and falls. Most pro bodies are made with a rigid metal frame and are waterproofed with seals. They also have to hold lenses on the front bigger and heavier than 6lbs in a lot of cases. I agree with both sides. if you want to experience a manual camera lacking controls visit the Nikon 1 series which has mostly a horrible user interface. The flip side is something like the Z9 which has touch, buttons and knobs everywhere. The only questionable thing is 5G since cameras usually are built for 5 to 10 year working lives and live on for many more past that. Tethering to a phone seems like a fair compromise that also gives great battery life.
amy-petrik-214 2y ago
Just to add to this, I don't think we even need a physical button to trigger a photo. There should just be one big touchpad and screen like the tesla car. Speaking of, why does the tesla car have a steering wheel and gas pedal at all? these would be better served with the humble touchscreen. programmatic interfaces and such, a software update can completely revamp your gas peda.. i mean gasscreen This way, with limited input, as I fumble with my camera my hamfists won't randomly press buttons, just as I fumble with my car hamfoot won't randomly press pedals. It's like all those little buttons and bobs were put there just to annoy me, it's awful. Oh, and all these things needs to be "smart" everything "smart". Internet of things, wi-fi, bluetooth, redtooth, cloud connectivity. For the camera, the car, the dishwasher, the spoon, all of it. The internet of spoons. Touchscreen spoons.
ycombinator_acc 2y ago
Do you use glide typing on your Android?

atoav 2y ago

IMO the way black magic does it with their cinema cameras is a great middle ground. Big bright touchscreen that can do all + some physical buttons and dials for often used things. In their early series I had one of those touchsrcreens die on set, but those reliability issues seem to have gone since.

PetitPrince 2y ago

> You really, really do. This may sound contradictory at first, but cameras are operated blind. Even when you’re looking at the camera, you’re not seeing the camera, you’re seeing the subject. I completely agree. Touchscreen interface and touch button are terrible UI in a car for the very same reason: you're looking at the subject/the road, not at your camera/your dashboard.

m463 2y ago
> terrible UI in a car I hate that tesla is removing stalks from all cars.

md_ 2y ago

I'm reminded of how long it took Garmin to add touchscreens to their sports watches, and how controversial it was in the user community. If you want to check your heart-rate while sitting at your desk, scrolling through the touchscreen on an Apple Watch is great. But if you're wearing gloves while skiing, or your hands are covered in mud and sweat during a trail run, a touchscreen is not a great option. Garmin's modern sport line now has optional touchscreens, but all major functionality is still accessible via physical controls alone. Their lifestyle models are touchscreen-first, though, which really demonstrates the different requirements for different use-cases. I suspect the same is true in the camera world.

bayindirh 2y ago
When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment. You see a potential subject, you "arm" the camera via its power switch instinctively. Your finger goes to front/back dial and you set your parameters depending on the mode, sometimes only paying attention to numbers on the screen or top LCD or viewfinder. You're tracking your subject now. If you need, you select the AF point blindly via the touchscreen (which is off and is a touchpad if you're looking via viewfinder), and fine tune it via the joystick if you need one. Looks good, half-press, AF Locks. You release the shutter and camera clicks. It's done. You turn off your camera blindly and continue walking.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > When you're doing street photography, or any photography with a DSLR/Mirrorless, you don't look at the controls at any given moment. Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway. Show the controls there, including focus points and maybe "exposure" settings. And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination.
  - verandaguy 2y ago
    > Why? You're looking at the screen to track the target anyway Not necessarily. You might be looking through the viewfinder, which will almost always have better contrast in bright sunlight than even a sunlight-readable screen; and even so, if you're using the display, fumbling through a touchscreen interface will always be slower than doing the same with a haptic interface you're used to. > And with the computational photography, you can just take multiple pictures and synthesize various "exposure times" later. And it'll likely be better than what you set blindly, hoping to get the right combination. I think this shows some disconnect over what many photographers are trying to do with their cameras. The goal often isn't to maximize the use of technology to get the best possible photo _technically speaking,_ but to use your own familiarity with techniques and tools to make something great _yourself._ Computational photography is an anti-feature for many photographers. Beyond that; you usually aren't shooting blind unless you choose to. Cameras come with metering (and have done so for many decades now), and it's gotten pretty damn good at telling you when your photo's properly exposed. Newer (<15 years old) cameras will often also have a histogram which gives you even more data than an EV meter.

ninjin 2y ago

Indeed, buttons and dials can be learnt to operate blindly so that you can focus on what really matters: scene and composition. There is a reason why Fujifilm have become the darlings of the semi-pro scene over the last decade. Look at anything in the X-T series and every single parameter that you need to change in a second or lose the shot has a button or dial for it; without them being as bulky as full-fledged SLRs. Phones with touch screens are great for shots where you have a high degree of control over the subject (yourself, food, etc.) and your physical relationship to it. But one must realise that there is a great deal of photography where this will not be the case.

hypercube33 2y ago

Weight is also due to the cameras being built like tanks - they need to be absolutely dependable in any weather and survive drops bangs and falls. Most pro bodies are made with a rigid metal frame and are waterproofed with seals. They also have to hold lenses on the front bigger and heavier than 6lbs in a lot of cases. I agree with both sides. if you want to experience a manual camera lacking controls visit the Nikon 1 series which has mostly a horrible user interface. The flip side is something like the Z9 which has touch, buttons and knobs everywhere. The only questionable thing is 5G since cameras usually are built for 5 to 10 year working lives and live on for many more past that. Tethering to a phone seems like a fair compromise that also gives great battery life.

amy-petrik-214 2y ago

Just to add to this, I don't think we even need a physical button to trigger a photo. There should just be one big touchpad and screen like the tesla car. Speaking of, why does the tesla car have a steering wheel and gas pedal at all? these would be better served with the humble touchscreen. programmatic interfaces and such, a software update can completely revamp your gas peda.. i mean gasscreen This way, with limited input, as I fumble with my camera my hamfists won't randomly press buttons, just as I fumble with my car hamfoot won't randomly press pedals. It's like all those little buttons and bobs were put there just to annoy me, it's awful. Oh, and all these things needs to be "smart" everything "smart". Internet of things, wi-fi, bluetooth, redtooth, cloud connectivity. For the camera, the car, the dishwasher, the spoon, all of it. The internet of spoons. Touchscreen spoons.

ycombinator_acc 2y ago

Do you use glide typing on your Android?