5 ms·

Bronze Age cheese reveals human-Lactobacillus interactions over history

59 points by benbreen 2y ago

OJFord 2y ago
> milk fermentation can be traced back to 6000–4000 BC in India,2 and Mediterranean populations produced and consumed cheese as early as 7000 before present (BP) I haven't come across 'before present' (other than generically) before - what's the distinction from +2000BC (i.e. 5000BC here) such that both end up used in the same sentence, making it awkward to see the relationship between dates?
- adrian_b 2y ago
  In this specific case, perhaps the dates have been taken from two different sources and the author has not made the effort to convert them to a common format. In general, dates "before present" are used for the dates determined from carbon 14 decay, which do not have an intrinsic relationship with any calendar. A prehistoric cheese that is 7000 years old must have been dated with carbon 14, so "before present" would be the original dating, not yet converted to the Christian calendar.
- schrodinger 2y ago
  Apparently if the source is written word, then BC is used as that was their source of truth. But if carbon dating or some other scientific method was used, BP is used secularly: https://chatgpt.com/share/66fe7080-5340-8000-ade3-bace6425b40e https://chatgpt.com/share/66fe7080-5340-8000-ade3-bace6425b4...
- inanutshellus 2y ago
  "Before Present" seems foolish. The document that uses it then has to then be dated. e.g. "I warmed up dinner one minute before present" ---> said ??? minutes ago. --> is dinner still warm? who knows. I get that "about 7,000 years ago" is still going to be "about 7,000 years" for a very long time. Still. Seems shortsighted to communicate dates via a moving target, especially for something that's already supposed to be thinking in very long terms. Archaeologists, you'd think, would expect their words to stick around a long, long time, why would they use a short-sighted dating mechanism?
  - muscomposter 2y ago
    British Petroleum would beg to differ but it is getting silly, all these two-letter acronyms to indicate before or after the non-existing Julian or Gregorian year zero
    - cassepipe 2y ago
      I like BCE and ACE because it's kind of backward compatible for my brain : You find the same B and A than the previous convention and I like that the CE makes it symmetrical. Common era is also a nice name humanity can get behind whereas my brain never fully accepted Anno Dominus or whatever. If you're going to refer to Christ, do it on both sides the same for Christ's sake ! So parsable, transparent and universal acronyms for the win !
- mapt 2y ago
  BP is commonly used for geologic and evolutionary timescales where 2000 years doesn't actually make much of a difference, but I rarely see it used for less than Holocene-spanning timelines. Sure makes it easier to understand if your intention is to portray the age rather than the relation to specific dated historical events.
  - OJFord 2y ago
    Ah that tracks, thank you. I do think it's odd in this sentence, with the two mixed (albeit we care about relating the first to history and the second to age) but clearly I'm not in the field so maybe it's just me. (I think putting the two together makes me want to relate the latter to a time in history, to compare, even if I wouldn't in isolation, if you see what I mean.)
nobrains 2y ago
https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/bb0dd7f6-1986-46b3-83d1-21f811df3076/audio https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/bb0dd7f6-1986-46b3-83...
echelon_musk 2y ago
I followed the recent submission to HN about making your own chilli sauce. I just bottled my first batch this week and had gone down the rabbit hole of studying fermentation. I don't think I'd otherwise have been so enthusiastic to read an article on cheese...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- coldpie 2y ago
  Home cheesemaking is super fun! Give it a go! I wrote an intro article about it a while back: https://www.smokingonabike.com/2015/09/27/cheesemaking-in-my-home/ https://www.smokingonabike.com/2015/09/27/cheesemaking-in-my... Gouda is a great one to start with. Camembert was my favorite, it turned out significantly tastier than what you can get at the store.
  - goosejuice 2y ago
    What store are you shopping at? If you're producing cheese, beer, or any other specialty food that's better than what you can get in your local stores, you should consider transforming it into a business. You won't make much money (in cheese) but it's a fun industry and your community might just love you for it.
    - heikkilevanto 2y ago
      Spoil a good hobby by turning it into a small business. No thanks!
      - goosejuice 2y ago
        It's a good thing not everyone thinks like this :)
    - poulsbohemian 2y ago
      It's probably been 8-10 years since I put together the numbers for a small scale creamery (think farmer's markets, etc), but at the time in my state and its regulatory environment, I figured it was about $90K just in equipment, plus whatever you'd need for your facility build-out. You might cut a lot of corners by say, starting with ice cream over cheese or getting lucky on used equipment, but this stuff and the regulatory compliance are just not cheap.
pazimzadeh 2y ago
For a study like this I think it's a missed opportunity not to take some samples from the bodies as well and try to figure out at what point did the human vagina became dominated by Lactobacillus species, and what is the relationship between that event and agriculture? And how do those strains compare to Lactobacilli found in the reproductive tract of other animals (at lower levels)?
- debacle 2y ago
  This is the weirdest comment I've ever upvoted on HN.
  - hammock 2y ago
    For more: Lactobacilli Dominance and Vaginal pH: Why Is the Human Vaginal Microbiome Unique? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5143676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5143676/
    - pazimzadeh 2y ago
      Vaginal microbiome of reproductive-age women https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1002611107 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1002611107 Temporal Dynamics of the Human Vaginal Microbiota https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/scitranslmed.3003605 https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/scitranslmed.300360...
  - pazimzadeh 2y ago
    that's a pretty big allegation

59 points by benbreen 2y ago

> milk fermentation can be traced back to 6000–4000 BC in India,2 and Mediterranean populations produced and consumed cheese as early as 7000 before present (BP) I haven't come across 'before present' (other than generically) before - what's the distinction from +2000BC (i.e. 5000BC here) such that both end up used in the same sentence, making it awkward to see the relationship between dates?

adrian_b 2y ago
In this specific case, perhaps the dates have been taken from two different sources and the author has not made the effort to convert them to a common format. In general, dates "before present" are used for the dates determined from carbon 14 decay, which do not have an intrinsic relationship with any calendar. A prehistoric cheese that is 7000 years old must have been dated with carbon 14, so "before present" would be the original dating, not yet converted to the Christian calendar.
schrodinger 2y ago
Apparently if the source is written word, then BC is used as that was their source of truth. But if carbon dating or some other scientific method was used, BP is used secularly: https://chatgpt.com/share/66fe7080-5340-8000-ade3-bace6425b40e https://chatgpt.com/share/66fe7080-5340-8000-ade3-bace6425b4...
inanutshellus 2y ago
"Before Present" seems foolish. The document that uses it then has to then be dated. e.g. "I warmed up dinner one minute before present" ---> said ??? minutes ago. --> is dinner still warm? who knows. I get that "about 7,000 years ago" is still going to be "about 7,000 years" for a very long time. Still. Seems shortsighted to communicate dates via a moving target, especially for something that's already supposed to be thinking in very long terms. Archaeologists, you'd think, would expect their words to stick around a long, long time, why would they use a short-sighted dating mechanism?
- muscomposter 2y ago
  British Petroleum would beg to differ but it is getting silly, all these two-letter acronyms to indicate before or after the non-existing Julian or Gregorian year zero
  - cassepipe 2y ago
    I like BCE and ACE because it's kind of backward compatible for my brain : You find the same B and A than the previous convention and I like that the CE makes it symmetrical. Common era is also a nice name humanity can get behind whereas my brain never fully accepted Anno Dominus or whatever. If you're going to refer to Christ, do it on both sides the same for Christ's sake ! So parsable, transparent and universal acronyms for the win !
mapt 2y ago
BP is commonly used for geologic and evolutionary timescales where 2000 years doesn't actually make much of a difference, but I rarely see it used for less than Holocene-spanning timelines. Sure makes it easier to understand if your intention is to portray the age rather than the relation to specific dated historical events.
- OJFord 2y ago
  Ah that tracks, thank you. I do think it's odd in this sentence, with the two mixed (albeit we care about relating the first to history and the second to age) but clearly I'm not in the field so maybe it's just me. (I think putting the two together makes me want to relate the latter to a time in history, to compare, even if I wouldn't in isolation, if you see what I mean.)

nobrains 2y ago

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/bb0dd7f6-1986-46b3-83d1-21f811df3076/audio https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/bb0dd7f6-1986-46b3-83...

echelon_musk 2y ago

I followed the recent submission to HN about making your own chilli sauce. I just bottled my first batch this week and had gone down the rabbit hole of studying fermentation. I don't think I'd otherwise have been so enthusiastic to read an article on cheese...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
coldpie 2y ago
Home cheesemaking is super fun! Give it a go! I wrote an intro article about it a while back: https://www.smokingonabike.com/2015/09/27/cheesemaking-in-my-home/ https://www.smokingonabike.com/2015/09/27/cheesemaking-in-my... Gouda is a great one to start with. Camembert was my favorite, it turned out significantly tastier than what you can get at the store.
- goosejuice 2y ago
  What store are you shopping at? If you're producing cheese, beer, or any other specialty food that's better than what you can get in your local stores, you should consider transforming it into a business. You won't make much money (in cheese) but it's a fun industry and your community might just love you for it.
  - heikkilevanto 2y ago
    Spoil a good hobby by turning it into a small business. No thanks!
    - goosejuice 2y ago
      It's a good thing not everyone thinks like this :)
  - poulsbohemian 2y ago
    It's probably been 8-10 years since I put together the numbers for a small scale creamery (think farmer's markets, etc), but at the time in my state and its regulatory environment, I figured it was about $90K just in equipment, plus whatever you'd need for your facility build-out. You might cut a lot of corners by say, starting with ice cream over cheese or getting lucky on used equipment, but this stuff and the regulatory compliance are just not cheap.

pazimzadeh 2y ago

For a study like this I think it's a missed opportunity not to take some samples from the bodies as well and try to figure out at what point did the human vagina became dominated by Lactobacillus species, and what is the relationship between that event and agriculture? And how do those strains compare to Lactobacilli found in the reproductive tract of other animals (at lower levels)?

debacle 2y ago
This is the weirdest comment I've ever upvoted on HN.
- hammock 2y ago
  For more: Lactobacilli Dominance and Vaginal pH: Why Is the Human Vaginal Microbiome Unique? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5143676/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5143676/
  - pazimzadeh 2y ago
    Vaginal microbiome of reproductive-age women https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1002611107 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1002611107 Temporal Dynamics of the Human Vaginal Microbiota https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/scitranslmed.3003605 https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/scitranslmed.300360...
- pazimzadeh 2y ago
  that's a pretty big allegation