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I just looked up FRED data on productivity and total compensation (including benefits) and they look roughly in line. Actually, compensation seems to have gone

I just looked up FRED data on productivity and total compensation (including benefits) and they look roughly in line. Actually, compensation seems to have gone up faster. To be honest, this comment reads like a political campaign statement, and I’d like less of this on Hacker News.

whatever1 2y ago
Can you share the links because from what I see the federal minimum wage is stagnant for decades.
- seizethecheese 2y ago
  Search FRED employment cost index. The federal minimum wage is irrelevant. Something like one percent of workers make federal minimum wage. It’s a good political talking point though…
  - skhunted 2y ago
    Yes, let’s ignore the million plus workers getting minimum wage. A wage that hasn’t increased in a very long time. It’s not a political talking point; it’s a moral talking point.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > the million plus workers getting minimum wage Neither of you have a point. Median wages have lagged productivity growth. But most Americans don’t earn the minimum wage.
      - skhunted 2y ago
        We should ignore that a million plus people are working for minimum wage. They don’t count. I agree with you. It’s better to say that the statistics aren’t changed much by increasing the federal minimum wage as it pertains to the productivity/pay gap. But one should acknowledge that for those making minimum wage it is a disgrace that it hasn’t increased for a long time and that it is far too low. Those people do matter. This isn’t just a discussion about statistics. There is a human element to the issue and morality is part of what one ought to consider when thinking about the issue. EDIT: I edited my comment while you were responding. The discussion in the present thread is not about the dockworkers. It’s about the pay/productivity gap in the U.S. In that discussion a person said that minimum wage workers were irrelevant and that the minimum wage was just a political talking point.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > They don’t count That’s unfair. Of course they count. The question is whether port logistics is the best policy tool with which to address their plight. The striking dockworkers don’t earn minimum wage. If the striking workers win, the minimum wage stays right where it is and has been for ~2mm minimum-wage workers [1]. This isn’t a fight about minimum wage. They count. But they aren’t relevant. > about the pay/productivity gap in the U.S. Fair enough. I believe we need a minimum-wage hike. But I don’t see how that’s relevant to a union strike. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_S...
      - seizethecheese 2y ago
        Average compensation has not lagged productivity growth. Maybe median has? Maybe only some subset? Longshoreman make well above median wage.
    - seizethecheese 2y ago
      This argument shifted the goal posts. First, it was about compensation in general against productivity. now it’s about minimum wage workers, who comprise 1% of the workforce ? What is the productivity change of minimum wage workers? (I actually don’t know.)
      - whatever1 2y ago
        You are the one shifting the goal posts. We are pointing out that the salaries are stagnant or getting worse over time (e.g. min wage) in real money terms. We show you that the inflation is same or higher than the annual wage raises, while the GDP is still growing (GDP growth is already adjusted for inflation). So someone is benefiting from the GDP growth, but this someone is not the W2-worker. But you don't want to admit the facts.
        seizethecheese 2y ago
        The data shows that the average wage is keeping up with productivity growth. The only argument you've presented is that the minimum wage has not kept up with productivity growth. You're right about that, which is a fairly narrow point, given the proportion of people making federal minimum wage has dropped from 13% to 1% of workers.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      If you want to make a minimum wage argument, you have to look at total receipts and benefits. For better or worse, we have opted for a systems where much of the receipts for low income works flow directly from the government. A minimum wage worker qualifies for free healthcare, food subsidies, and greatly subsidized housing if they can navigate the waitlist.
  - whatever1 2y ago
    The annual raises seem to be in the order of 2-3% [1]. Inflation is also in the same order [2]. I am asking you again to show me convincing numbers. [1]https://www.bls.gov/eci/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/eci/home.htm [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FPCPITOTLZGUSA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FPCPITOTLZGUSA
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  Less than 1% of workers are on federal minimum wage.
skhunted 2y ago
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ This next paper is funny. Notices the decoupling and tries to hand wave it away without explaining why there was no decoupling before the 80s. At any rate note that the graph is from FRED. https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2023/03/when-comparing-wages-and-worker-productivity-the-price-measure-matters/ https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2023/03/when-comparing-wages...
- ethbr1 2y ago
  The FRED blog discussion makes an interesting point about whether deflators are calculated from import or export prices changes (or both), and the effects it has on the analysis. Reminder of how difficult it is to make real-terms adjustments to economic measures over multiple decades spans when a country's balance of trade with the world in different sectors is also changing!
  - skhunted 2y ago
    Notice though that the FRED blog post does not explain away the discrepancy but merely mitigates it a bit. Note the decoupling still starts in the 70s. The great wealth disparity that exists today started at the same time. I don’t believe this is a coincidence.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      "A bit" is imprecise for the adjustment. I'd say more than a bit. It also suggests that if you dice it up by sector you might get different amounts of decoupling, which makes logical sense given productivity gains aren't equally spread.
      - skhunted 2y ago
        Sure. But in general there was no decoupling prior to 1970 and there is now decoupling. There has been wealth extraction from labor. That it is more prominent in some sectors than others is not too relevant in my opinion.
skhunted 2y ago
To be honest, this comment reads like a political campaign statement, and I’d like less of this on Hacker News. To be honest this comment reads like a statement from someone who can’t dispassionately discuss something. The validity of what I wrote is independent of the motivation for writing it.
- seizethecheese 2y ago
  I was reacting to this: “Enough wealth has been extracted from labor. It’s time to give labor its due.” It sounds like a campaign speech.

whatever1 2y ago

Can you share the links because from what I see the federal minimum wage is stagnant for decades.

seizethecheese 2y ago
Search FRED employment cost index. The federal minimum wage is irrelevant. Something like one percent of workers make federal minimum wage. It’s a good political talking point though…
- skhunted 2y ago
  Yes, let’s ignore the million plus workers getting minimum wage. A wage that hasn’t increased in a very long time. It’s not a political talking point; it’s a moral talking point.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the million plus workers getting minimum wage Neither of you have a point. Median wages have lagged productivity growth. But most Americans don’t earn the minimum wage.
    - skhunted 2y ago
      We should ignore that a million plus people are working for minimum wage. They don’t count. I agree with you. It’s better to say that the statistics aren’t changed much by increasing the federal minimum wage as it pertains to the productivity/pay gap. But one should acknowledge that for those making minimum wage it is a disgrace that it hasn’t increased for a long time and that it is far too low. Those people do matter. This isn’t just a discussion about statistics. There is a human element to the issue and morality is part of what one ought to consider when thinking about the issue. EDIT: I edited my comment while you were responding. The discussion in the present thread is not about the dockworkers. It’s about the pay/productivity gap in the U.S. In that discussion a person said that minimum wage workers were irrelevant and that the minimum wage was just a political talking point.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > They don’t count That’s unfair. Of course they count. The question is whether port logistics is the best policy tool with which to address their plight. The striking dockworkers don’t earn minimum wage. If the striking workers win, the minimum wage stays right where it is and has been for ~2mm minimum-wage workers [1]. This isn’t a fight about minimum wage. They count. But they aren’t relevant. > about the pay/productivity gap in the U.S. Fair enough. I believe we need a minimum-wage hike. But I don’t see how that’s relevant to a union strike. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_S...
    - seizethecheese 2y ago
      Average compensation has not lagged productivity growth. Maybe median has? Maybe only some subset? Longshoreman make well above median wage.
  - seizethecheese 2y ago
    This argument shifted the goal posts. First, it was about compensation in general against productivity. now it’s about minimum wage workers, who comprise 1% of the workforce ? What is the productivity change of minimum wage workers? (I actually don’t know.)
    - whatever1 2y ago
      You are the one shifting the goal posts. We are pointing out that the salaries are stagnant or getting worse over time (e.g. min wage) in real money terms. We show you that the inflation is same or higher than the annual wage raises, while the GDP is still growing (GDP growth is already adjusted for inflation). So someone is benefiting from the GDP growth, but this someone is not the W2-worker. But you don't want to admit the facts.
      - seizethecheese 2y ago
        The data shows that the average wage is keeping up with productivity growth. The only argument you've presented is that the minimum wage has not kept up with productivity growth. You're right about that, which is a fairly narrow point, given the proportion of people making federal minimum wage has dropped from 13% to 1% of workers.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    If you want to make a minimum wage argument, you have to look at total receipts and benefits. For better or worse, we have opted for a systems where much of the receipts for low income works flow directly from the government. A minimum wage worker qualifies for free healthcare, food subsidies, and greatly subsidized housing if they can navigate the waitlist.
- whatever1 2y ago
  The annual raises seem to be in the order of 2-3% [1]. Inflation is also in the same order [2]. I am asking you again to show me convincing numbers. [1]https://www.bls.gov/eci/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/eci/home.htm [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FPCPITOTLZGUSA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FPCPITOTLZGUSA
HDThoreaun 2y ago
Less than 1% of workers are on federal minimum wage.

skhunted 2y ago

https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ This next paper is funny. Notices the decoupling and tries to hand wave it away without explaining why there was no decoupling before the 80s. At any rate note that the graph is from FRED. https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2023/03/when-comparing-wages-and-worker-productivity-the-price-measure-matters/ https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2023/03/when-comparing-wages...

ethbr1 2y ago
The FRED blog discussion makes an interesting point about whether deflators are calculated from import or export prices changes (or both), and the effects it has on the analysis. Reminder of how difficult it is to make real-terms adjustments to economic measures over multiple decades spans when a country's balance of trade with the world in different sectors is also changing!
- skhunted 2y ago
  Notice though that the FRED blog post does not explain away the discrepancy but merely mitigates it a bit. Note the decoupling still starts in the 70s. The great wealth disparity that exists today started at the same time. I don’t believe this is a coincidence.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    "A bit" is imprecise for the adjustment. I'd say more than a bit. It also suggests that if you dice it up by sector you might get different amounts of decoupling, which makes logical sense given productivity gains aren't equally spread.
    - skhunted 2y ago
      Sure. But in general there was no decoupling prior to 1970 and there is now decoupling. There has been wealth extraction from labor. That it is more prominent in some sectors than others is not too relevant in my opinion.

skhunted 2y ago

To be honest, this comment reads like a political campaign statement, and I’d like less of this on Hacker News. To be honest this comment reads like a statement from someone who can’t dispassionately discuss something. The validity of what I wrote is independent of the motivation for writing it.

seizethecheese 2y ago
I was reacting to this: “Enough wealth has been extracted from labor. It’s time to give labor its due.” It sounds like a campaign speech.