2 ms·

What I don't get is, how on earth developers in the USA jumped on the boat of WFH. Isn't it obvious that if a job can be done from anywhere that would mean tha

by mrtksn 2y ago

What I don't get is, how on earth developers in the USA jumped on the boat of WFH. Isn't it obvious that if a job can be done from anywhere that would mean that you are opening yourself to world wide competition when subsidizing your company with your own facilities? Was it hubris? Do Americans believed that only they can do this coding stuff? Not only that the job market was opened to global competition, it allowed tech and capital transfer. On the grand scheme its great, now everyone does all these things but from workers perspective its very bad idea. It has been quite some time to see some outstanding American innovation. OpenAI and the generative AI was one but it didn't took much time for China to leap ahead. Maybe its nationalism, maybe its the language barrier but I see a lot of Asian innovations that don't catch much attention in the Anglosphere. American techies pumping Sora on Twitter over some demos when Chinese are having it open to use by the public was amusing. There's this narrative on Twitter and elsewhere about how EU over regulated tech and fell behind US but this whole narrative is based on dismissing the Asian innovations. You have to omit China and other Asian countries from the graphs that show Europe is falling behind so to claim that free market and libertarianism is driving innovation and growth, because if you include Asia you end up claiming that its communism and centralized economies are actually the big success stories.

linotype 2y ago
Companies are going to offshore no matter where US employees work.
salawat 2y ago
>You have to omit China and other Asian countries from the graphs that show Europe is falling behind so to claim that free market and libertarianism is driving innovation and growth, because if you include Asia you end up claiming that its communism and centralized economies are actually the big success stories. See, you have to realize that China is "still in the process of democratizing from free market exposure" and "the world is more peaceful now than it ever has been because of economic interdependence". Thanks Milton Friedman! /s Admitting that offshoring was actually prioritizing lower prices (through regulatory arbitrage and human suffering based subsidies) over national economic and skills maintenance security will get you shooed out of the room. Yeah. Look at all the Indians lifted out of poverty... Shipbreaking multi-decade old ships, rebuilding lead batteries by hand (without PPE). Look at all the uplifting of the Global South! ...Often ruining their own environment to do things that absolutely would not fly here. Look at all the inroads we've made making the world more peaceful by shipping all the most advanced manufacturing infra over to a hostile regime that culturally values patience and tends to think further ahead than a 200 year old upstart. There was a period of complete retardation in full swing in the 80's to early 10's that I truly wish it were easier to articulate in media res as opposed to in hindsight. But that's life for ya.
csa 2y ago
> What I don't get is, how on earth developers in the USA jumped on the boat of WFH. I think the general US ethos is something like “if we can offshore it, we will… find something where you can add more value”. That said, I think a lot of non-US-based programmers grossly over-estimate the value of pure programming skills versus things like understanding a market, problem solving, empathy, English proficiency, similar time zone, professional trust, etc. on top of programming skills goes a long way. No good programmer is afraid of their employment status, imho. On the other hand, the number of offshoring nightmare stories abound, just like we did last time offshoring was the next hot thing. > It has been quite some time to see some outstanding American innovation. At a minimum, there is plenty of innovation that is not publicly known. Is the US as prolific as some times in the past? Probably not. Is that a fair comparison? Also probably not. > Was it hubris? … because if you include Asia you end up claiming that its communism and centralized economies are actually the big success stories. This sounds like sock puppet rhetoric. As someone with a bit of experience in asia, including China, I’m happy to bet on Asia being good and sometimes the best at certain things, especially areas of incremental improvement. That said, I’m willing to make large bets that Asian ascendency to the top of the general innovation leaderboard will not happen in my lifetime.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  > That said, I think a lot of non-US-based programmers grossly over-estimate the value of pure programming skills versus things like understanding a market, problem solving, empathy, English proficiency, similar time zone, professional trust, etc. on top of programming skills goes a long way. I agree, but IMHO when WFH many of these are weakened or even completely lost for the local American employees too. When WFH, the cultural integration(which provides the empathy, market understanding and other) gets reduced into whatever they can get from their neighborhood and from the internet. The internet part is available to everyone globally and the neighborhood culture is already not very strong in the USA apart from few places like NY. The rest are skills people can develop just as they can develop their programming. It's true that good programmers don't have to be afraid but there're good programmers all over the word and when the market is not as hot, even the best will feel it.
  - 2y ago

by mrtksn 2y ago

linotype 2y ago

Companies are going to offshore no matter where US employees work.

salawat 2y ago

>You have to omit China and other Asian countries from the graphs that show Europe is falling behind so to claim that free market and libertarianism is driving innovation and growth, because if you include Asia you end up claiming that its communism and centralized economies are actually the big success stories. See, you have to realize that China is "still in the process of democratizing from free market exposure" and "the world is more peaceful now than it ever has been because of economic interdependence". Thanks Milton Friedman! /s Admitting that offshoring was actually prioritizing lower prices (through regulatory arbitrage and human suffering based subsidies) over national economic and skills maintenance security will get you shooed out of the room. Yeah. Look at all the Indians lifted out of poverty... Shipbreaking multi-decade old ships, rebuilding lead batteries by hand (without PPE). Look at all the uplifting of the Global South! ...Often ruining their own environment to do things that absolutely would not fly here. Look at all the inroads we've made making the world more peaceful by shipping all the most advanced manufacturing infra over to a hostile regime that culturally values patience and tends to think further ahead than a 200 year old upstart. There was a period of complete retardation in full swing in the 80's to early 10's that I truly wish it were easier to articulate in media res as opposed to in hindsight. But that's life for ya.

csa 2y ago

> What I don't get is, how on earth developers in the USA jumped on the boat of WFH. I think the general US ethos is something like “if we can offshore it, we will… find something where you can add more value”. That said, I think a lot of non-US-based programmers grossly over-estimate the value of pure programming skills versus things like understanding a market, problem solving, empathy, English proficiency, similar time zone, professional trust, etc. on top of programming skills goes a long way. No good programmer is afraid of their employment status, imho. On the other hand, the number of offshoring nightmare stories abound, just like we did last time offshoring was the next hot thing. > It has been quite some time to see some outstanding American innovation. At a minimum, there is plenty of innovation that is not publicly known. Is the US as prolific as some times in the past? Probably not. Is that a fair comparison? Also probably not. > Was it hubris? … because if you include Asia you end up claiming that its communism and centralized economies are actually the big success stories. This sounds like sock puppet rhetoric. As someone with a bit of experience in asia, including China, I’m happy to bet on Asia being good and sometimes the best at certain things, especially areas of incremental improvement. That said, I’m willing to make large bets that Asian ascendency to the top of the general innovation leaderboard will not happen in my lifetime.

mrtksn 2y ago
> That said, I think a lot of non-US-based programmers grossly over-estimate the value of pure programming skills versus things like understanding a market, problem solving, empathy, English proficiency, similar time zone, professional trust, etc. on top of programming skills goes a long way. I agree, but IMHO when WFH many of these are weakened or even completely lost for the local American employees too. When WFH, the cultural integration(which provides the empathy, market understanding and other) gets reduced into whatever they can get from their neighborhood and from the internet. The internet part is available to everyone globally and the neighborhood culture is already not very strong in the USA apart from few places like NY. The rest are skills people can develop just as they can develop their programming. It's true that good programmers don't have to be afraid but there're good programmers all over the word and when the market is not as hot, even the best will feel it.
- 2y ago