4 ms·

It's true that Gentoo has some pieces of what they need to build an implementation of option 1 (build packages that depend on other packages before completeing

by codys 2y ago

It's true that Gentoo has some pieces of what they need to build an implementation of option 1 (build packages that depend on other packages before completeing an install), but it's currently the case that that is not what happens when one runs `emerge` (the gentoo packaging build/installing tool), as you've noted one would need to write scripts that wrap emerge (or do the same work manually) to attempt to accomplish this today. I suspect that using bind mounts and overlays (to allow the "building packages" chroot a view of the "installed" root) could be used to accomplish this, or alternately some filesystem snapshotting features if we're thinking about this from the "external to emerge" angle. (It's my understanding that for Gentoo to do this ABI change, though, they need some solution integrated into emerge). To some extent, this kind of potential model also reminds me of systems that integrate their package updating with filesystem snapshotting to allow rollbacks and actually-atomic upgrades of many files. I think one or more of the solaris distributions did this?

aaronmdjones 2y ago
> but it's currently the case that that is not what happens when one runs `emerge` (the gentoo packaging build/installing tool) This would be a simple matter of changing /etc/portage/make.profile to point to a profile that uses the new ABI and setting (and exporting) the ROOT variable in the shell you type "emerge" into (or add this ROOT=/whatever/ line to /etc/portage/make.conf), is what I was getting at. There's no need to write any wrappers.
- codys 2y ago
  Simply changing `ROOT` doesn't magically enable us to have `emerge` update our normal `ROOT=/`. There's extra steps here (the syncing, the bind mounting, etc) for the `emerge` with a custom `ROOT` to do an update to `/` itself. And that's if we have a `ROOT` that allows us to source dependencies (libraries to link against, includes, etc). Currently it's unclear to me how exactly `ROOT` works, probably meaning there needs to be a bit more documentation there and potentially indicating that it might not be used much right now.
  - aaronmdjones 2y ago
    > There's extra steps here (the syncing, the bind mounting, etc) for the `emerge` with a custom `ROOT` to do an update to `/` itself. Those extra steps are handled by telling people what to do, in news items. This happened for example in the 17.1 -> 23.0 profile migration [1]; emerge wasn't updated to help people do this in any way whatsoever, users are expected to do everything themselves. This is the Gentoo way. > And that's if we had a `ROOT` that allowed us to source dependencies (libraries to link against, includes, etc). You don't need to source anything in ROOT because everything you're rebuilding is already in /. If you intended to build a program that depended upon a library you did not already have (in /), you're right, this wouldn't work. That isn't the case here. The dynamic linker (ld-linux.so or whatever you fancy, the ELF interpreter, the thing that runs before main(), the thing that will look at the list of dependent libraries, try to load them, and balk at any mismatches) isn't executed until the program is, and setting ROOT merely tells portage where to put them; it doesn't execute them. This I alluded to in the other comment thread about building a userland that your CPU can't even execute. [1] https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2024-03-22-new-23-profiles.html https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2024-03-22-new-23-...
    - codys 2y ago
      Huh. If it's OK to have instructions like those for users to run through, then I guess I don't understand what's holding up switching to 64-bit time_t for gentoo. Seems like they could make a new profile and tell folks to deal with it. Perhaps I don't understand what the requirements are here, which might indicate that the requirements aren't clear for others too.

by codys 2y ago

aaronmdjones 2y ago

> but it's currently the case that that is not what happens when one runs `emerge` (the gentoo packaging build/installing tool) This would be a simple matter of changing /etc/portage/make.profile to point to a profile that uses the new ABI and setting (and exporting) the ROOT variable in the shell you type "emerge" into (or add this ROOT=/whatever/ line to /etc/portage/make.conf), is what I was getting at. There's no need to write any wrappers.

codys 2y ago
Simply changing `ROOT` doesn't magically enable us to have `emerge` update our normal `ROOT=/`. There's extra steps here (the syncing, the bind mounting, etc) for the `emerge` with a custom `ROOT` to do an update to `/` itself. And that's if we have a `ROOT` that allows us to source dependencies (libraries to link against, includes, etc). Currently it's unclear to me how exactly `ROOT` works, probably meaning there needs to be a bit more documentation there and potentially indicating that it might not be used much right now.
- aaronmdjones 2y ago
  > There's extra steps here (the syncing, the bind mounting, etc) for the `emerge` with a custom `ROOT` to do an update to `/` itself. Those extra steps are handled by telling people what to do, in news items. This happened for example in the 17.1 -> 23.0 profile migration [1]; emerge wasn't updated to help people do this in any way whatsoever, users are expected to do everything themselves. This is the Gentoo way. > And that's if we had a `ROOT` that allowed us to source dependencies (libraries to link against, includes, etc). You don't need to source anything in ROOT because everything you're rebuilding is already in /. If you intended to build a program that depended upon a library you did not already have (in /), you're right, this wouldn't work. That isn't the case here. The dynamic linker (ld-linux.so or whatever you fancy, the ELF interpreter, the thing that runs before main(), the thing that will look at the list of dependent libraries, try to load them, and balk at any mismatches) isn't executed until the program is, and setting ROOT merely tells portage where to put them; it doesn't execute them. This I alluded to in the other comment thread about building a userland that your CPU can't even execute. [1] https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2024-03-22-new-23-profiles.html https://www.gentoo.org/support/news-items/2024-03-22-new-23-...
  - codys 2y ago
    Huh. If it's OK to have instructions like those for users to run through, then I guess I don't understand what's holding up switching to 64-bit time_t for gentoo. Seems like they could make a new profile and tell folks to deal with it. Perhaps I don't understand what the requirements are here, which might indicate that the requirements aren't clear for others too.