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Asking just out of curiosity/ignorance. The author mentions that the F35 has a completely digital touchscreen to basically do anything on the aircraft (I assume

Asking just out of curiosity/ignorance. The author mentions that the F35 has a completely digital touchscreen to basically do anything on the aircraft (I assume). I can also image a powerful gun damaging it, then how does pilot manage if that screen stops working at all? Compare the same situation in the F4. The hit would only break/damage the instruments on that line of fire, correct? So in one case you would be totally screwed while in the other one you would partially lose some instruments, right? I must obviously not be taking into account something (or many things) for the F35, but in my mind having a 100% digital aircraft seems pretty scary.

StableAlkyne 2y ago
Generally, if the cockpit is getting hit with damage to the instruments, there is a very good chance the pilot has also been injured or killed, and doesn't care about the instruments anymore. In old gun fights (which just don't happen anymore), shots were likely to come from behind (so, they intersect the pilot) or the top (so, through the canopy if they're hitting the instruments). This has to do with the orientation both planes are probably in if one is shooting at the other. Go back farther and you get shots from the front, not from fighters (head-ons are very difficult to pull off outside of videogames) but from bomber tail gunners - very old planes from WWII even had bulletproof glass in front of the pilot for this reason. If the F35 has gotten into a gunfight, the pilot has fucked up, it's not a dogfighter and wasn't designed to be one. Even nowadays, if the missile or flak pops next to the cockpit and has managed to damage the instruments, there is a very strong chance the shrapnel has also hurt the pilot to the point that they're not flying home that day. This is the most likely way for the F-35 to be damaged in the modern era. There are obviously scenarios where the instrument panel gets damaged but the pilot is okay, but it's such a low probability scenario that they likely deemed it to be less harmful than the benefit they foresee in a glass cockpit.
- liendolucas 2y ago
  Thanks for replying! As other mentioned I was missing/not considering the most important case that the pilot is assumed to be dead and that the plane is not supposed to receive such fire.
  - metaphor 2y ago
    The relevant question strikes me as less extreme outlier combat scenario, more routine safety of flight upon primary display LRU failure. See this reply[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41683263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41683263
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
hydrolox 2y ago
to be fair isn't the purpose of the F35 fairly different since it's extremely reliant on stealth and beyond visual range engagements?;Instead of getting close enough to be gunned down, it is supposed to strike from so far away that the enemy wouldn't know it's there.
akgoel 2y ago
The F35 is not meant to be a dogfighter. If it has gotten shot such that the control screen in unusable, something else has gone wrong.
- the__alchemist 2y ago
  It's a high performance fighter with a gun and SRMs, so...
  - talldayo 2y ago
    ...so you turn around and go home long before you're forced into a gun fight. Sure, the F-35 is a multirole fighter aircraft with a gun - so is the F-15E, but that doesn't make it a dogfighter. If you're in a position where a guns solution is your only kill option in an F-15 or an F-35, something has gone terribly wrong. Pretty much everything about both jets is designed to operate in a theater with extremely high levels of air support and friendly materiel. It is assumed that they won't get into a dogfight because it is extraordinarily rare for an F-35 to exhaust two AIM-120s in a single sortie, let alone the 6 it can carry in stealth mode or the whopping 12 AMRAAMs that the F-15 can lug along. Even as far back as the Vietnam War, forcing a missile truck like the F-4 into a dogfight with a MiG-15 was a death sentence. You don't need a very active imagination to suppose how an F-35 fares in a guns-only dogfight against an Su-27.
    - the__alchemist 2y ago
      FYSA, F-15Es and F-35 squadrons train to BFM all the time, and it happens in exercises all the time. The enemy gets a vote, and fog of war is real. I suspect the key piece you are missing is: If an engagement happens when you're in a stern WEZ, you may have to go to the merge. Also, you are not carrying that many MRMs on an eagle unless it's the new one with quad packs.
    - jcgrillo 2y ago
      F35s (I believe from the 134th fighter squadron of the VT Air Guard) train over my house regularly and I can confirm they do quite a lot of slow, close quarters dogfighting. EDIT: I believe I've also seen F22s but I have no idea where they're from.
heavenlyblue 2y ago
If you project a line that crosses an aircraft instrument panel it's hard to imagine a line that didn't also go through pilot's body.
zppln 2y ago
Can't speak for the F35, but for the fighter I work on we basically consider the pilot dead if you have shrapnel damage in the cockpit. For instance, the FCS is located behind the pilot. That being said, I would assume the F35 display being at least dual redundant (think two displays merged together, which can be done seamlessly) for flight safety reasons.
- stavros 2y ago
  If the displays are merged seamlessly, how will you know if one has failed?
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    I assume both displays in use, but have failover to one only if a display goes “dead”and then the single display can still display the most critical information/controls to the pilot; to me that seems like the only logical implementation. Giving 1 of the 2 screens failing. It should be fairly easy to set up a redundancy failover process, I’ve done that many times in embedded coding where we failed over to a backup system.
  - baby_souffle 2y ago
    Reduction in brightness?
    - stavros 2y ago
      I assume they're using LCDs, where the brightness is provided by the backlight.
      - baby_souffle 2y ago
        > I assume they're using LCDs, where the brightness is provided by the backlight. Presumably that also would be duplicated. Why go to all the effort of having two displays but still have the risk of a single backlight going out and making both displays useless?
  - 2y ago
toast0 2y ago
I'd imagine the ejection system is going to be activated by traditional handles, and not a screen. Same with the basic flight controls; there's no reason to move to a touch screen throttle or flight stick.
iancmceachern 2y ago
They're not just regular screens. They're highly hardened, redundant, specialized displays, it's a whole industry. There are companies that make displays that have clear conductors over the screen so they can heat them so they can be used and maintain function even when on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the arctic. There are companies that still make CRTs for specific military purposes. These screens are safer, more reliable, and durable than the mechanical systems they replace.
- dfox 2y ago
  The displays aren't that much special. Probably the main two things that are special about them are color rendition and contrast and the rest is just about the certification process. And extrapolating from automotive experience, the color rendition and contrast is about some team of engineers being solely dedicated to simulating various lightning conditions and verifying that the screen remains legible, does not interfere with night vision and does not cause reflections on other instruments that would make them hard to read. In automotive this kind of simulations use multiple terabytes of reflectivity data for various mostly “dull” materials (gigabytes upon gigabytes of data on what the driver might wear…), so extrapolate from that to “most advanced fighter aircraft”.
  - iancmceachern 2y ago
    They kinda are: https://viewpointproducts.com/products/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw0t63BhAUEiwA5xP54SwOWsVrKsRQ-uJWBMQa89eVCypnSiOybXYCyM0o6Y5ijfbtWmpkexoCMPwQAvD_BwE https://viewpointproducts.com/products/?gad_source=1&gclid=C...
jeff_vader 2y ago
Basic flight instruments almost always have a backup. In case of F-35 there's a small square screen in centre console which shows attitude indicator and flight parameters. Needless to say, if main screens are out you are turning around and looking for the nearest airport.
the__alchemist 2y ago
Depending on the fighter: redundant systems. Ie multiple independent Ring Laser Gyros, (viewable on multiple independent displays), backed up by analog "round dials" instruments.
kens 2y ago
The backup for the display is an integrated standby instrument system (ISIS), which combines several essential instruments into one small digital display. An ISIS typically has its own sensors and a battery backup, so it should stay operational even if the main display fails. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_standby_instrument_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_standby_instrument_...
- metaphor 2y ago
  Oddly, no one has mentioned HMDS[1] in discussion yet. [1] https://www.collinsaerospace.com/what-we-do/industries/military-and-defense/displays-and-controls/airborne/helmet-mounted-displays/f-35-gen-iii-helmet-mounted-display-system https://www.collinsaerospace.com/what-we-do/industries/milit...

StableAlkyne 2y ago

Generally, if the cockpit is getting hit with damage to the instruments, there is a very good chance the pilot has also been injured or killed, and doesn't care about the instruments anymore. In old gun fights (which just don't happen anymore), shots were likely to come from behind (so, they intersect the pilot) or the top (so, through the canopy if they're hitting the instruments). This has to do with the orientation both planes are probably in if one is shooting at the other. Go back farther and you get shots from the front, not from fighters (head-ons are very difficult to pull off outside of videogames) but from bomber tail gunners - very old planes from WWII even had bulletproof glass in front of the pilot for this reason. If the F35 has gotten into a gunfight, the pilot has fucked up, it's not a dogfighter and wasn't designed to be one. Even nowadays, if the missile or flak pops next to the cockpit and has managed to damage the instruments, there is a very strong chance the shrapnel has also hurt the pilot to the point that they're not flying home that day. This is the most likely way for the F-35 to be damaged in the modern era. There are obviously scenarios where the instrument panel gets damaged but the pilot is okay, but it's such a low probability scenario that they likely deemed it to be less harmful than the benefit they foresee in a glass cockpit.

liendolucas 2y ago
Thanks for replying! As other mentioned I was missing/not considering the most important case that the pilot is assumed to be dead and that the plane is not supposed to receive such fire.
- metaphor 2y ago
  The relevant question strikes me as less extreme outlier combat scenario, more routine safety of flight upon primary display LRU failure. See this reply[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41683263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41683263
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

hydrolox 2y ago

to be fair isn't the purpose of the F35 fairly different since it's extremely reliant on stealth and beyond visual range engagements?;Instead of getting close enough to be gunned down, it is supposed to strike from so far away that the enemy wouldn't know it's there.

akgoel 2y ago

The F35 is not meant to be a dogfighter. If it has gotten shot such that the control screen in unusable, something else has gone wrong.

the__alchemist 2y ago
It's a high performance fighter with a gun and SRMs, so...
- talldayo 2y ago
  ...so you turn around and go home long before you're forced into a gun fight. Sure, the F-35 is a multirole fighter aircraft with a gun - so is the F-15E, but that doesn't make it a dogfighter. If you're in a position where a guns solution is your only kill option in an F-15 or an F-35, something has gone terribly wrong. Pretty much everything about both jets is designed to operate in a theater with extremely high levels of air support and friendly materiel. It is assumed that they won't get into a dogfight because it is extraordinarily rare for an F-35 to exhaust two AIM-120s in a single sortie, let alone the 6 it can carry in stealth mode or the whopping 12 AMRAAMs that the F-15 can lug along. Even as far back as the Vietnam War, forcing a missile truck like the F-4 into a dogfight with a MiG-15 was a death sentence. You don't need a very active imagination to suppose how an F-35 fares in a guns-only dogfight against an Su-27.
  - the__alchemist 2y ago
    FYSA, F-15Es and F-35 squadrons train to BFM all the time, and it happens in exercises all the time. The enemy gets a vote, and fog of war is real. I suspect the key piece you are missing is: If an engagement happens when you're in a stern WEZ, you may have to go to the merge. Also, you are not carrying that many MRMs on an eagle unless it's the new one with quad packs.
  - jcgrillo 2y ago
    F35s (I believe from the 134th fighter squadron of the VT Air Guard) train over my house regularly and I can confirm they do quite a lot of slow, close quarters dogfighting. EDIT: I believe I've also seen F22s but I have no idea where they're from.

heavenlyblue 2y ago

If you project a line that crosses an aircraft instrument panel it's hard to imagine a line that didn't also go through pilot's body.

zppln 2y ago

Can't speak for the F35, but for the fighter I work on we basically consider the pilot dead if you have shrapnel damage in the cockpit. For instance, the FCS is located behind the pilot. That being said, I would assume the F35 display being at least dual redundant (think two displays merged together, which can be done seamlessly) for flight safety reasons.

stavros 2y ago
If the displays are merged seamlessly, how will you know if one has failed?
- EasyMark 2y ago
  I assume both displays in use, but have failover to one only if a display goes “dead”and then the single display can still display the most critical information/controls to the pilot; to me that seems like the only logical implementation. Giving 1 of the 2 screens failing. It should be fairly easy to set up a redundancy failover process, I’ve done that many times in embedded coding where we failed over to a backup system.
- baby_souffle 2y ago
  Reduction in brightness?
  - stavros 2y ago
    I assume they're using LCDs, where the brightness is provided by the backlight.
    - baby_souffle 2y ago
      > I assume they're using LCDs, where the brightness is provided by the backlight. Presumably that also would be duplicated. Why go to all the effort of having two displays but still have the risk of a single backlight going out and making both displays useless?
- 2y ago

toast0 2y ago

I'd imagine the ejection system is going to be activated by traditional handles, and not a screen. Same with the basic flight controls; there's no reason to move to a touch screen throttle or flight stick.

iancmceachern 2y ago

They're not just regular screens. They're highly hardened, redundant, specialized displays, it's a whole industry. There are companies that make displays that have clear conductors over the screen so they can heat them so they can be used and maintain function even when on the deck of an aircraft carrier in the arctic. There are companies that still make CRTs for specific military purposes. These screens are safer, more reliable, and durable than the mechanical systems they replace.

dfox 2y ago
The displays aren't that much special. Probably the main two things that are special about them are color rendition and contrast and the rest is just about the certification process. And extrapolating from automotive experience, the color rendition and contrast is about some team of engineers being solely dedicated to simulating various lightning conditions and verifying that the screen remains legible, does not interfere with night vision and does not cause reflections on other instruments that would make them hard to read. In automotive this kind of simulations use multiple terabytes of reflectivity data for various mostly “dull” materials (gigabytes upon gigabytes of data on what the driver might wear…), so extrapolate from that to “most advanced fighter aircraft”.
- iancmceachern 2y ago
  They kinda are: https://viewpointproducts.com/products/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw0t63BhAUEiwA5xP54SwOWsVrKsRQ-uJWBMQa89eVCypnSiOybXYCyM0o6Y5ijfbtWmpkexoCMPwQAvD_BwE https://viewpointproducts.com/products/?gad_source=1&gclid=C...

jeff_vader 2y ago

Basic flight instruments almost always have a backup. In case of F-35 there's a small square screen in centre console which shows attitude indicator and flight parameters. Needless to say, if main screens are out you are turning around and looking for the nearest airport.

the__alchemist 2y ago

Depending on the fighter: redundant systems. Ie multiple independent Ring Laser Gyros, (viewable on multiple independent displays), backed up by analog "round dials" instruments.

kens 2y ago

The backup for the display is an integrated standby instrument system (ISIS), which combines several essential instruments into one small digital display. An ISIS typically has its own sensors and a battery backup, so it should stay operational even if the main display fails. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_standby_instrument_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_standby_instrument_...

metaphor 2y ago
Oddly, no one has mentioned HMDS[1] in discussion yet. [1] https://www.collinsaerospace.com/what-we-do/industries/military-and-defense/displays-and-controls/airborne/helmet-mounted-displays/f-35-gen-iii-helmet-mounted-display-system https://www.collinsaerospace.com/what-we-do/industries/milit...