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Sadly, the first applications of this will most likely be military.

ceejayoz 2y ago
This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming and submarines where satellite signals are unavailable, yes. It'll be nice if they can get it small enough for a phone, though.
- reliablereason 2y ago
  I would assume that the refrigerator sized ones are definitely already in submarines.
  - zardo 2y ago
    Maybe, but this isn't the only way to build a high performance accelerometer.
- nordsieck 2y ago
  > This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming Depending on when the tech is available, preventing GPS jamming of drones is probably much more urgent in Ukraine.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Yes, but until they’re autonomous the drones are still heavily subject to jamming of their radio controls. This won’t fix that. HIMARS, on the other hand, will enjoy the improvements.
    - KennyBlanken 2y ago
      "Until"? They've been in use for years now in that war. The Shahed drone, for example, was used by Russia. About two years ago Ukraine was using autonomous drones to down Shahed drones. AI targeting came out in the Gulf war, friend. 35 years ago, Tomahawks could use rudimentary AI to match preprogrammed terrain profile and target imagery to get more precise targeting.
      - ceejayoz 2y ago
        > The Shahed drone, for example, was used by Russia. The Shaeed is really just a rather shitty cruise missile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 "No cameras or short-range sensors were noted in 2022." > Tomahawks could use rudimentary AI to match preprogrammed terrain profile and target imagery to get more precise targeting. Key word: preprogrammed, and similarly a cruise missile. It's the FPV drones chasing down people in trenches that require real-time video transmission to control.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        The Shahed drone can't use it's INS system to communicate with a ground operator or reprogram itself. As the other comment says, it's basically a glorified cruise missile that has the autonomy of a Roomba. Disabling a Shahed with another drone may have happened, but it's certainly not the primary threat to the Shahed when compared to CIWS or SAMs. AI targeting was debuted in the Patriot missile system, which does technically field the required elements of a hands-off kill chain. But TERCOM is not AI nor was it debuted in the 90s with the TLAM. The original BLOCK-I variants of the Tomohawk (and many versions released afterwards) were no more autonomous than the Shahed-136.
- aledalgrande 2y ago
  Yeah it would be awesome to finally have accurate positioning in between highrises on the phone, gps sucks for that.
vlovich123 2y ago
That’s literally what’s funding this research
- imoverclocked 2y ago
  That could be the point of sentiment around this tech. Most funded development is done out of military R&D instead of science/consumer/art purposes. Everything else ends up benefiting eventually but it would be nice if we didn’t only create things for war and then later repurpose them for everything else.
KennyBlanken 2y ago
More specifically, nuclear arms, where the budget is "there is no budget." Just the inertial guidance system of a 90's-era ICBM cost over six figures per missile. The ability to precisely place a missile without any external navigation (except for stars.) Once it gets cheap enough, it'll probably go into cruise missiles; it could eliminate or reduce the need for terrain contour matching, which requires radar transmission. I'm not 100% certain but I believe when MEMS accelerometers first came out, the better ones were subject to arms controls because of fears they could be used in missiles.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  Nuclear arms doesn't need as much accuracy as other weapons though: when using a cruise missile or a glide bomb with a few hundreds of kilograms of explosives, you need metric precision to get the military effect, when the payload is a 100kt bomb, then 100m is accurate enough. Unlike other bombs it must absolutely be 100% resilient to any kind of spoofing though, for obvious reasons, hence GNSS is a nonstarter for those when they are the default guidance system for other weapons (with backups, for cruise missile).
  - dingaling 2y ago
    > when the payload is a 100kt bomb, then 100m is accurate enough Not accurate enough for counterforce. When a missile silo lid can withstand 600 atmospheres of overpressure, "close enough" isn't good enough.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    My point was that nuclear missile development gets a blank check and I cited the over-six-figure intertial guidance units in 80's and 90's era missiles as an example of this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Accuracy is incredibly important because you don't put a nuke somewhere to kill people; you put it there to destroy infrastructure. More specifically nuclear missile silos, and bomb shelters (well, the people inside them.) Reducing the CEP means you can use a smaller nuclear yield to get the job done, which is preferable for a number of reasons, including politics, but also allowing for more targets in a strike. The very latest US ICBMs are suspected of having sub-100m CEP. CEP for ICBMs is "bad" enough that it is typical for planners to figure three warheads per target, but accuracy is rumored to be getting good enough where that is no longer necessary.
horstbort 2y ago
Thankfully, the same measurement technique can be used to measure e.g. gravitational fields, and there are already devices available on the market which surpass classical gravimeters in accuracy and precision. There are also satellite missions in the planning to map Earth's gravitational field with atom interferometry.
mhb 2y ago
It's only sad if you are a fan of inaccurate munitions and collateral damage.
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
This is truism applicable to the vast majority of technologies. Space was once also a rival mother of invention. If quantum INS can soon take out more Russian ammo dumps in spectacular fashion, then bring on improvements to lasers.
- dangitman 2y ago
  [dead]

This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming and submarines where satellite signals are unavailable, yes. It'll be nice if they can get it small enough for a phone, though.

reliablereason 2y ago
I would assume that the refrigerator sized ones are definitely already in submarines.
- zardo 2y ago
  Maybe, but this isn't the only way to build a high performance accelerometer.
nordsieck 2y ago
> This will absolutely go in missiles to handle GPS jamming Depending on when the tech is available, preventing GPS jamming of drones is probably much more urgent in Ukraine.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  Yes, but until they’re autonomous the drones are still heavily subject to jamming of their radio controls. This won’t fix that. HIMARS, on the other hand, will enjoy the improvements.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    "Until"? They've been in use for years now in that war. The Shahed drone, for example, was used by Russia. About two years ago Ukraine was using autonomous drones to down Shahed drones. AI targeting came out in the Gulf war, friend. 35 years ago, Tomahawks could use rudimentary AI to match preprogrammed terrain profile and target imagery to get more precise targeting.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > The Shahed drone, for example, was used by Russia. The Shaeed is really just a rather shitty cruise missile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HESA_Shahed_136 "No cameras or short-range sensors were noted in 2022." > Tomahawks could use rudimentary AI to match preprogrammed terrain profile and target imagery to get more precise targeting. Key word: preprogrammed, and similarly a cruise missile. It's the FPV drones chasing down people in trenches that require real-time video transmission to control.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      The Shahed drone can't use it's INS system to communicate with a ground operator or reprogram itself. As the other comment says, it's basically a glorified cruise missile that has the autonomy of a Roomba. Disabling a Shahed with another drone may have happened, but it's certainly not the primary threat to the Shahed when compared to CIWS or SAMs. AI targeting was debuted in the Patriot missile system, which does technically field the required elements of a hands-off kill chain. But TERCOM is not AI nor was it debuted in the 90s with the TLAM. The original BLOCK-I variants of the Tomohawk (and many versions released afterwards) were no more autonomous than the Shahed-136.
aledalgrande 2y ago
Yeah it would be awesome to finally have accurate positioning in between highrises on the phone, gps sucks for that.

vlovich123 2y ago

That’s literally what’s funding this research

imoverclocked 2y ago
That could be the point of sentiment around this tech. Most funded development is done out of military R&D instead of science/consumer/art purposes. Everything else ends up benefiting eventually but it would be nice if we didn’t only create things for war and then later repurpose them for everything else.

KennyBlanken 2y ago

More specifically, nuclear arms, where the budget is "there is no budget." Just the inertial guidance system of a 90's-era ICBM cost over six figures per missile. The ability to precisely place a missile without any external navigation (except for stars.) Once it gets cheap enough, it'll probably go into cruise missiles; it could eliminate or reduce the need for terrain contour matching, which requires radar transmission. I'm not 100% certain but I believe when MEMS accelerometers first came out, the better ones were subject to arms controls because of fears they could be used in missiles.

littlestymaar 2y ago
Nuclear arms doesn't need as much accuracy as other weapons though: when using a cruise missile or a glide bomb with a few hundreds of kilograms of explosives, you need metric precision to get the military effect, when the payload is a 100kt bomb, then 100m is accurate enough. Unlike other bombs it must absolutely be 100% resilient to any kind of spoofing though, for obvious reasons, hence GNSS is a nonstarter for those when they are the default guidance system for other weapons (with backups, for cruise missile).
- dingaling 2y ago
  > when the payload is a 100kt bomb, then 100m is accurate enough Not accurate enough for counterforce. When a missile silo lid can withstand 600 atmospheres of overpressure, "close enough" isn't good enough.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  My point was that nuclear missile development gets a blank check and I cited the over-six-figure intertial guidance units in 80's and 90's era missiles as an example of this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here? Accuracy is incredibly important because you don't put a nuke somewhere to kill people; you put it there to destroy infrastructure. More specifically nuclear missile silos, and bomb shelters (well, the people inside them.) Reducing the CEP means you can use a smaller nuclear yield to get the job done, which is preferable for a number of reasons, including politics, but also allowing for more targets in a strike. The very latest US ICBMs are suspected of having sub-100m CEP. CEP for ICBMs is "bad" enough that it is typical for planners to figure three warheads per target, but accuracy is rumored to be getting good enough where that is no longer necessary.

horstbort 2y ago

Thankfully, the same measurement technique can be used to measure e.g. gravitational fields, and there are already devices available on the market which surpass classical gravimeters in accuracy and precision. There are also satellite missions in the planning to map Earth's gravitational field with atom interferometry.

mhb 2y ago

It's only sad if you are a fan of inaccurate munitions and collateral damage.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

This is truism applicable to the vast majority of technologies. Space was once also a rival mother of invention. If quantum INS can soon take out more Russian ammo dumps in spectacular fashion, then bring on improvements to lasers.

dangitman 2y ago
[dead]