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Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources or appreciate in value in the eyes

Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources or appreciate in value in the eyes of an economic system that prioritizes increasing capital valuations above all else, including human dignity, long-term survival and the life of other species, I would say we're already there. Talking about a dystopian future is a convenient way to assuade our sense of dissonance that the present is most certainly not that. Case in point, nobody wants to rid the Earth of insects, fill the oceans with plastic or plough microplastics into every orifice, but we are all complicit and can't seem to gather ourselves to fix it.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
> Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources ... Or for governments, doing government jobs that produce absolutely nothing of value and force people to waste a big chunk of their lives on administrative tasks...
- epicide 2y ago
  Or for corporations that produce things of negative value and force people to waste a big chunk of their lives on administrative tasks.
- specproc 2y ago
  I come from a town where the biggest employer is the state in a few different forms. I think it's entirely valid for the government to keep them all busy 9-5, salaried and pensioned. Main function of the state IMO. I don't fear government, I fear the lack of it.
  - willguest 2y ago
    This doesn't deserve to be downvoted, it is very legitimate point. I think there is a role for public organisation, with political groups being one type. I am, however, critical of the prevailing agenda, since they often exist in a system where money can play a big role in deciding which priorities rise to the top. I am not sure that politics plays such a central role as it used or as many people assume. Our society today seems to be divided functionally... we answer to many bosses, some economic, some political, some technological, and so on. For me the more/less gov't debate misses the important points. It is the incentives, mechanism and processes that determine their value. I think you are referring to maintain order and keeping the peace - valuable functions, but made more necessary when people are under such strain in their daily lives.
- CraigJPerry 2y ago
  "a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case" — Nathan Heller Whats the public vs private split to this idea? Its not a new idea - “Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.” — John Wanamaker
  - randomdata 2y ago
    He doesn’t speak to any particular split. The government forces the private sector to do pointless work as much or more.
yaky 2y ago
> First of all, I know it's all people like you. And that's what's so scary. Individually you don't know what you're doing collectively. - The Circle by Dave Eggers > In the course of her job, Resaint had met people like Megrimson, executives who went into work and sat down at their desks and made decisions that ravaged the world. They didn't seem evil to her. They seemed more like fungal colonies or AI subroutines, mechanical components of a self-perpetuating super-organism, with no real subjectivity of their own. That said, she would have happily watched any of them die. - Venomous Lumpsucker by Ned Beauman I know it's still science/climate fiction, but very relevant to your point.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
verisimi 2y ago
[flagged]
- zafka 2y ago
  I have lived in South Florida, close to the Atlantic ocean for close to 40 years. In the time I have lived here, the insect populations have noticeably dropped. I have also queried relatives from the midwest. It used to be every summer your car would get covered with dead bugs, not so any more. As for plastics in the ocean, every time I go to the beach I see a lot of macro plastics.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Thank you for your personal testimony. It's good to hear that in your experience it seems that the insect populations really have dropped. Of course, there may be other reasons - eg if there are highways where it used to be small roads, you would expect insects to stay clear of the area. Also, litter you can see, is not microplastics - you can't see the microplastics.... But they are there! Apparently.
    - willguest 2y ago
      So, objective science is untrustworthy and subjective testimony is easily explained away. Let me guess - only your opinion is the one that matters. You have a poorly-crafted answer for both sides of the coin, but also fail to read the details of the things you oppose.
      - verisimi 2y ago
        One has to ask oneself, is it better to have a comforting story, that is likely leveraged for someone, somewhere's benefit, or to start with the honest position, which is that "I don't know". One can of course become more certain of whatever-it-is, but not without attempting some personal research. Or, one can just defer all personal responsibility and parrot whatever the consensus view is.
nuancebydefault 2y ago
This is something I regularly read, something in the line of 'we're doomed and it's our own fault since we are actively part of this destructive system'. I think while humanity is destroying things they are fixing things as well. Banning of heavy metals in environment, removing asbestos, getting most people to stop smoking, eating less meat, energy transition... it's not perfect but we are working on it. Meanwhile average age increases and violence decreases (averaged over a large period at least)
iwishiknewlisp 2y ago
It would take someone mentally ill (i.e. "neurodivergent") to actually go beyond the routine and take drastic action to fix. Normal people don't go against what society deems normal. Normal people will lie to themselves rather than face the truth, and that's a good thing usually. Almost always is it better to be united in a less optimal path than divided. This is true for the individual as well as socirty. However, in certain situations a society's path becomes so misdirected that its better to be alone than follow the group.
iwishiknewlisp 2y ago
[flagged]

TacticalCoder 2y ago

> Given that the vast majority of people go to work to earn money for businesses that exist either to exploit natural resources ... Or for governments, doing government jobs that produce absolutely nothing of value and force people to waste a big chunk of their lives on administrative tasks...

epicide 2y ago
Or for corporations that produce things of negative value and force people to waste a big chunk of their lives on administrative tasks.
specproc 2y ago
I come from a town where the biggest employer is the state in a few different forms. I think it's entirely valid for the government to keep them all busy 9-5, salaried and pensioned. Main function of the state IMO. I don't fear government, I fear the lack of it.
- willguest 2y ago
  This doesn't deserve to be downvoted, it is very legitimate point. I think there is a role for public organisation, with political groups being one type. I am, however, critical of the prevailing agenda, since they often exist in a system where money can play a big role in deciding which priorities rise to the top. I am not sure that politics plays such a central role as it used or as many people assume. Our society today seems to be divided functionally... we answer to many bosses, some economic, some political, some technological, and so on. For me the more/less gov't debate misses the important points. It is the incentives, mechanism and processes that determine their value. I think you are referring to maintain order and keeping the peace - valuable functions, but made more necessary when people are under such strain in their daily lives.
CraigJPerry 2y ago
"a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case" — Nathan Heller Whats the public vs private split to this idea? Its not a new idea - “Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half.” — John Wanamaker
- randomdata 2y ago
  He doesn’t speak to any particular split. The government forces the private sector to do pointless work as much or more.

yaky 2y ago

> First of all, I know it's all people like you. And that's what's so scary. Individually you don't know what you're doing collectively. - The Circle by Dave Eggers > In the course of her job, Resaint had met people like Megrimson, executives who went into work and sat down at their desks and made decisions that ravaged the world. They didn't seem evil to her. They seemed more like fungal colonies or AI subroutines, mechanical components of a self-perpetuating super-organism, with no real subjectivity of their own. That said, she would have happily watched any of them die. - Venomous Lumpsucker by Ned Beauman I know it's still science/climate fiction, but very relevant to your point.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

verisimi 2y ago

[flagged]

zafka 2y ago
I have lived in South Florida, close to the Atlantic ocean for close to 40 years. In the time I have lived here, the insect populations have noticeably dropped. I have also queried relatives from the midwest. It used to be every summer your car would get covered with dead bugs, not so any more. As for plastics in the ocean, every time I go to the beach I see a lot of macro plastics.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Thank you for your personal testimony. It's good to hear that in your experience it seems that the insect populations really have dropped. Of course, there may be other reasons - eg if there are highways where it used to be small roads, you would expect insects to stay clear of the area. Also, litter you can see, is not microplastics - you can't see the microplastics.... But they are there! Apparently.
  - willguest 2y ago
    So, objective science is untrustworthy and subjective testimony is easily explained away. Let me guess - only your opinion is the one that matters. You have a poorly-crafted answer for both sides of the coin, but also fail to read the details of the things you oppose.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      One has to ask oneself, is it better to have a comforting story, that is likely leveraged for someone, somewhere's benefit, or to start with the honest position, which is that "I don't know". One can of course become more certain of whatever-it-is, but not without attempting some personal research. Or, one can just defer all personal responsibility and parrot whatever the consensus view is.

nuancebydefault 2y ago

This is something I regularly read, something in the line of 'we're doomed and it's our own fault since we are actively part of this destructive system'. I think while humanity is destroying things they are fixing things as well. Banning of heavy metals in environment, removing asbestos, getting most people to stop smoking, eating less meat, energy transition... it's not perfect but we are working on it. Meanwhile average age increases and violence decreases (averaged over a large period at least)

iwishiknewlisp 2y ago

It would take someone mentally ill (i.e. "neurodivergent") to actually go beyond the routine and take drastic action to fix. Normal people don't go against what society deems normal. Normal people will lie to themselves rather than face the truth, and that's a good thing usually. Almost always is it better to be united in a less optimal path than divided. This is true for the individual as well as socirty. However, in certain situations a society's path becomes so misdirected that its better to be alone than follow the group.

iwishiknewlisp 2y ago

[flagged]