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The teaching trend is very, very real. Public schools are in crisis due to the dual shocks of Covid and inflation (which came on top of years of underinvestment

The teaching trend is very, very real. Public schools are in crisis due to the dual shocks of Covid and inflation (which came on top of years of underinvestment and declining quality of the work environment, so the whole thing was already teetering before that shove) and nobody’s even talking about spending what it’ll take to fix them. The low-COL-adjusted-comp areas are worst-hit, but a marked decline in quality is in store for the whole sector, largely due to staff shortages and an associated, unavoidable decline in average quality.

tmpz22 2y ago
You post problems in addition to COVID and Inflation but you barely scratch the surface. No Child Left Behind, School vouchers, defunding public colleges, the list goes on and on and on as to how we’ve been chipping away at education.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Yep, you’re spot-on. The sector’d been taking a pummeling for years and years, that was just the final one-two punch (and a doozy, at that). If there’s a third thing, it’s the renewed and persistent negative political attention on schools from the right over the last eight years.
slt2021 2y ago
Could private school vouchers and magnet schools fix it? I feel like a lot of problems with teaching is due to overregulation from department of education and increasing scope bloat of their responsibilities. Just stick to mass daycare with curriculum model and allow free competition from private sector and it should be fine. The best compensated teachers are the ones that achieve results: train champions and elevate students to their highest potential. Its not going to happen at public school
- jghn 2y ago
  > Could private school vouchers Ask Arizona how it is going [1] [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/arizona-school-vouchers-budget-meltdown https://www.propublica.org/article/arizona-school-vouchers-b...
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    "To open our meeting, good news: This year we managed to direct a ton of public tax dollars towards our favorite private entities and churches, and the budget shortfall gives us an excuse to strangle other safety-net programs we already didn't like!" /s As a note for non-US folks, individual states cannot print currency the same way the federal government can, so budget shortfalls on that level are a lot more immediate and impactful.
  - diddid 2y ago
    It was an interesting read, but it only says how much they spend on school vouchers. I didn’t see a spend for the standard public schools. They said the average voucher was 7k which is almost for sure lower than what public school is charging per student. Maybe they just need to add an income requirement to it and if you make too much no voucher.
    - Jtsummers 2y ago
      https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2024/public-school-spending-per-pupil.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2024/public-s... ~$10k, so yes the voucher is less than what the public school students are getting (directly from their teachers and indirectly through other school services and faculty).
  - slt2021 2y ago
    I read the article and think that Arizona's problems are not inherent to the voucher system per se, just how they administered it. People found a loophole. Need to tie closely the money coming out with the voucher and the corresponding decrease in spend on public school system
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  Magnet schools are public schools, but usually with more motivated students or involved parents. The more motivated students part can help, it's more enjoyable to go to work teaching when most of the class wants to be there.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- panzagl 2y ago
  Private schools (and charters) usually pay worse than public schools.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    private schools face fierce competition and immediate feedback loop from parents. public school system is not accountable at all to parents. this makes sure that interest of school and parents and kids are aligned and no political bs coming from above like DoE
    - vundercind 2y ago
      Public schools are painfully accountable to whichever parents have the most free time and least shame. One of the greatest superpowers of good private schools is a long wait list of applicants that let them tell not just troublemakers, but anyone not on-board and cooperative with their approach, to get bent.
      - slt2021 2y ago
        not at the district/state/federal level, unfortunately. These DoE bureacrats in DC (and lawmakers) send their kids to private schools, while over-regulate public schools with nonsense and grift. Regular public school principal has very limited arsenal of tools he can do to meet parents' needs, unfortunately. its like you can only complain to McDonald's store manager, but McDonalds shareholders dont give a damn about your complaints, unless you take your business elsewhere - and with public schools you cannot take your business elsewhere. Taxes always go to public schools. and through teacher's unions regulatory capture and lobby they always make sure the grift continues.
- jgeada 2y ago
  Private school vouchers are the worst idea ever. How's removing yet more funding for public schools supposed to be an answer to public schools don't have enough funding? As the funny paraphrasing goes (https://x.com/teedjvt/status/1685251077753430016 https://x.com/teedjvt/status/1685251077753430016) "I don't really like the city parks. I want to join a country club so my kid doesn't have to play with 'those' kids and I want the city parks system to pay for my membership"
  - slt2021 2y ago
    public school system is full of grift, politically appointed and allocated resources, and zero accountability. if you face inefficient system that cannot manage resources - you cannot pour more resources and expect better results. as a proof you can look at Chicago, DC and Baltimore school systems that have the highest per capita spend and the lowest academic achievement metrics. we just need to provide parents an option to opt-out of crooked system
    - jgeada 2y ago
      Nobody forces you to put your kids in public schools. But just like other taxes you don’t get to opt out of paying and you don’t get to take your money back.
      - slt2021 2y ago
        well the voucher system allows me to opt out of supporting this corrupt system with my taxes.
        jgeada 2y ago
        How about the pentagon, or homeland security, or … Why are you picking on the fractional pennies in the budget and letting the millions go out the door? The system is corrupt precisely because people with influence are allowed to opt out & simultaneously benefit.
diddid 2y ago
I think the lack of quality is not being driven at the individual teacher level and isn’t related to covid at all. Covid made the issues that already existed visible. Removing AP classes and charter schools, graduating kids missing credits, downplaying test results, and failing to properly address poor student behavior are all usually made at the district level. I don’t think increased funding would change any of that and I think a lot of good teachers would still quit.
- slt2021 2y ago
  the highest per student spend is at the most failing and underperforming school systems: Chicago, DC, Baltimore - and they haven't showed a trend to improve at all and keep demanding more and more resources
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Low-performing inner city schools do sometimes pay quite a bit more than easy suburban schools—but the work environment is so incredibly terrible and the job so difficult that they struggle to retain good teachers anyway. They have to pay extra just to keep anyone at all.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      It is not the money if kids have no capacity to learn.
- vundercind 2y ago
  There are two main things reducing quality of the schools as this goes on: 1) There’s a really bad staff shortage. The ways schools are trying to compensate without significantly raising pay are making school worse. Three examples are reducing the length of the school week, cutting “specials” (art, music, languages, non-“core” classes), and replacing instruction with crappy computerized solutions (believe me, they’re mostly crappy). 2) Because there’s a shortage of teachers, it’s harder to turn down an applicant or get rid of a bad or mediocre teacher. These also aren’t disproportionately leaving—plenty of good ones are among the ones moving to other sectors, in part because they tend to have the best prospects outside of school, and it’s not like schools can really offer them more to try to keep them. So, the pool of candidates is at least not improving as it shrinks, and it’s tougher to get rid of teachers that otherwise might be let go. Further, the teacher pipeline is drying up and it’s quickly becoming a less-attractive option for students entering school. Result: average teacher quality may be expected to trend down.
MostlyStable 2y ago
Honest question: what is the appropriate level of investment? According to the national center for education statistics [0] Spending per pupil went up 13% from 2010 to 2021 after accounting for inflation, so that's a real increase of 13%, not a nominal increase. And 80% of those dollars are going to staff. I'll admit that I'm anything but an expert, but a real increase in spending of 13% across a decade does not sound like years of underinvestment. I'm happy to be educated on this topic, but from an outsider perspective, it just doesn't seem like the issue. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmb https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmb
- vundercind 2y ago
  Teacher wages lots of places probably need a 20% bump, or more, to stop the bleeding. Regardless of the total being spent, not enough’s going to comp for teachers. The whole thing’s worst in states that were already paying sub-par COL-adjusted wages (obviously) so states that weren’t screwing up quite so bad to begin with might not need so drastic a change.

tmpz22 2y ago

You post problems in addition to COVID and Inflation but you barely scratch the surface. No Child Left Behind, School vouchers, defunding public colleges, the list goes on and on and on as to how we’ve been chipping away at education.

vundercind 2y ago
Yep, you’re spot-on. The sector’d been taking a pummeling for years and years, that was just the final one-two punch (and a doozy, at that). If there’s a third thing, it’s the renewed and persistent negative political attention on schools from the right over the last eight years.

slt2021 2y ago

Could private school vouchers and magnet schools fix it? I feel like a lot of problems with teaching is due to overregulation from department of education and increasing scope bloat of their responsibilities. Just stick to mass daycare with curriculum model and allow free competition from private sector and it should be fine. The best compensated teachers are the ones that achieve results: train champions and elevate students to their highest potential. Its not going to happen at public school

jghn 2y ago
> Could private school vouchers Ask Arizona how it is going [1] [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/arizona-school-vouchers-budget-meltdown https://www.propublica.org/article/arizona-school-vouchers-b...
- Terr_ 2y ago
  "To open our meeting, good news: This year we managed to direct a ton of public tax dollars towards our favorite private entities and churches, and the budget shortfall gives us an excuse to strangle other safety-net programs we already didn't like!" /s As a note for non-US folks, individual states cannot print currency the same way the federal government can, so budget shortfalls on that level are a lot more immediate and impactful.
- diddid 2y ago
  It was an interesting read, but it only says how much they spend on school vouchers. I didn’t see a spend for the standard public schools. They said the average voucher was 7k which is almost for sure lower than what public school is charging per student. Maybe they just need to add an income requirement to it and if you make too much no voucher.
  - Jtsummers 2y ago
    https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2024/public-school-spending-per-pupil.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2024/public-s... ~$10k, so yes the voucher is less than what the public school students are getting (directly from their teachers and indirectly through other school services and faculty).
- slt2021 2y ago
  I read the article and think that Arizona's problems are not inherent to the voucher system per se, just how they administered it. People found a loophole. Need to tie closely the money coming out with the voucher and the corresponding decrease in spend on public school system
Jtsummers 2y ago
Magnet schools are public schools, but usually with more motivated students or involved parents. The more motivated students part can help, it's more enjoyable to go to work teaching when most of the class wants to be there.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
panzagl 2y ago
Private schools (and charters) usually pay worse than public schools.
- slt2021 2y ago
  private schools face fierce competition and immediate feedback loop from parents. public school system is not accountable at all to parents. this makes sure that interest of school and parents and kids are aligned and no political bs coming from above like DoE
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Public schools are painfully accountable to whichever parents have the most free time and least shame. One of the greatest superpowers of good private schools is a long wait list of applicants that let them tell not just troublemakers, but anyone not on-board and cooperative with their approach, to get bent.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      not at the district/state/federal level, unfortunately. These DoE bureacrats in DC (and lawmakers) send their kids to private schools, while over-regulate public schools with nonsense and grift. Regular public school principal has very limited arsenal of tools he can do to meet parents' needs, unfortunately. its like you can only complain to McDonald's store manager, but McDonalds shareholders dont give a damn about your complaints, unless you take your business elsewhere - and with public schools you cannot take your business elsewhere. Taxes always go to public schools. and through teacher's unions regulatory capture and lobby they always make sure the grift continues.
jgeada 2y ago
Private school vouchers are the worst idea ever. How's removing yet more funding for public schools supposed to be an answer to public schools don't have enough funding? As the funny paraphrasing goes (https://x.com/teedjvt/status/1685251077753430016 https://x.com/teedjvt/status/1685251077753430016) "I don't really like the city parks. I want to join a country club so my kid doesn't have to play with 'those' kids and I want the city parks system to pay for my membership"
- slt2021 2y ago
  public school system is full of grift, politically appointed and allocated resources, and zero accountability. if you face inefficient system that cannot manage resources - you cannot pour more resources and expect better results. as a proof you can look at Chicago, DC and Baltimore school systems that have the highest per capita spend and the lowest academic achievement metrics. we just need to provide parents an option to opt-out of crooked system
  - jgeada 2y ago
    Nobody forces you to put your kids in public schools. But just like other taxes you don’t get to opt out of paying and you don’t get to take your money back.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      well the voucher system allows me to opt out of supporting this corrupt system with my taxes.
      - jgeada 2y ago
        How about the pentagon, or homeland security, or … Why are you picking on the fractional pennies in the budget and letting the millions go out the door? The system is corrupt precisely because people with influence are allowed to opt out & simultaneously benefit.

diddid 2y ago

I think the lack of quality is not being driven at the individual teacher level and isn’t related to covid at all. Covid made the issues that already existed visible. Removing AP classes and charter schools, graduating kids missing credits, downplaying test results, and failing to properly address poor student behavior are all usually made at the district level. I don’t think increased funding would change any of that and I think a lot of good teachers would still quit.

slt2021 2y ago
the highest per student spend is at the most failing and underperforming school systems: Chicago, DC, Baltimore - and they haven't showed a trend to improve at all and keep demanding more and more resources
- vundercind 2y ago
  Low-performing inner city schools do sometimes pay quite a bit more than easy suburban schools—but the work environment is so incredibly terrible and the job so difficult that they struggle to retain good teachers anyway. They have to pay extra just to keep anyone at all.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    It is not the money if kids have no capacity to learn.
vundercind 2y ago
There are two main things reducing quality of the schools as this goes on: 1) There’s a really bad staff shortage. The ways schools are trying to compensate without significantly raising pay are making school worse. Three examples are reducing the length of the school week, cutting “specials” (art, music, languages, non-“core” classes), and replacing instruction with crappy computerized solutions (believe me, they’re mostly crappy). 2) Because there’s a shortage of teachers, it’s harder to turn down an applicant or get rid of a bad or mediocre teacher. These also aren’t disproportionately leaving—plenty of good ones are among the ones moving to other sectors, in part because they tend to have the best prospects outside of school, and it’s not like schools can really offer them more to try to keep them. So, the pool of candidates is at least not improving as it shrinks, and it’s tougher to get rid of teachers that otherwise might be let go. Further, the teacher pipeline is drying up and it’s quickly becoming a less-attractive option for students entering school. Result: average teacher quality may be expected to trend down.

MostlyStable 2y ago

Honest question: what is the appropriate level of investment? According to the national center for education statistics [0] Spending per pupil went up 13% from 2010 to 2021 after accounting for inflation, so that's a real increase of 13%, not a nominal increase. And 80% of those dollars are going to staff. I'll admit that I'm anything but an expert, but a real increase in spending of 13% across a decade does not sound like years of underinvestment. I'm happy to be educated on this topic, but from an outsider perspective, it just doesn't seem like the issue. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmb https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmb

vundercind 2y ago
Teacher wages lots of places probably need a 20% bump, or more, to stop the bleeding. Regardless of the total being spent, not enough’s going to comp for teachers. The whole thing’s worst in states that were already paying sub-par COL-adjusted wages (obviously) so states that weren’t screwing up quite so bad to begin with might not need so drastic a change.