5 ms·

I like the idea of reclaiming the word "buy" to only be the traditional type of ownership transfer (first sale doctrine or whatever if it's a copyrighted thing)

by dmoy 2y ago

I like the idea of reclaiming the word "buy" to only be the traditional type of ownership transfer (first sale doctrine or whatever if it's a copyrighted thing). Mandate the use of the word "license" or "rent" if it's something else

ravenstine 2y ago
Exactly. Conflating buying with renting indefinitely, without resale ability, is a deliberate way of confusing people for profit. My younger, more naive self, might have been surprised at just how long society has allowed this to slide.
lotsofpulp 2y ago
Keep it simple and just use the word rent. No need to complicate it. “Rent until we choose to not allow you to access it for a one time payment of $x”.
- falcolas 2y ago
  I'm afraid that the connotations around rent (namely monthly payments) would only encourage the worst publishers to only go further.
  - ronsor 2y ago
    No one is renting a game for $70/month.
    - warkdarrior 2y ago
      Not yet!
      - rvnx 2y ago
        Absolutely! Markets evolve, see, for example, nobody was willing to pay on things like Siri, and now millions of folks are spending 25 USD/month on Siri+. EDIT: sorry, just came from the future.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - Foobar8568 2y ago
      Not sure of the cost of MMORPG, but at one stage they were like $12-$14, and Everquest even had a server that was lived for a couple of years, legend, where it was like $40/month, a bit pay-to-win server...I mean with a better CS support.
      - NikkiA 2y ago
        > but at one stage they were like $12-$14 they (the ones that are subscription) still are. And most of them have micro-transactions on top of that as well. Some will give you a (very) limited number of micro-transaction currency-units per month.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      $50 up front and $10/month...
    - strathmeyer 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_pass_(video_games) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_pass_(video_games)
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Sellers are smarter than that, they already go as far as they think buyers will let them. It is the buyers who need elucidation.
    - diggan 2y ago
      If you solution involves getting the general population to do something or "be better" somehow, it's not a practical solution.
- packetlost 2y ago
  Idk, I think "rent" and "license" have different meanings. Modern definitions of "rent" include periodicity into the definition, which is at odds with the "one time until we shut off the servers" definition. I agree with the GP on the terminology for these reasons.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    The whole point is to highlight, for the lay consumer, the periodicity of their purchase, regardless of the periodicity of payments. And hopefully create market pressure for sellers to sell things rather than rent them.
    - packetlost 2y ago
      Fair, I can get behind that reasoning
  - scottmf 2y ago
    I “rented” a movie on Apple TV last night. I’m quite confident I won’t be paying again in 30 days :)
    - ianburrell 2y ago
      That is good reason to not use "rent" because it is already used in industry for short fixed-term rental.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        The button should say rent: 1 day or 7 days or “until we choose to no longer give you access”.
        anticensor 2y ago
        It should say "rent product and purchase accompanying one-time and recurring services".
callc 2y ago
Is there a better word for this sort of transaction (non-resellable, arbitrary cancellation of service at some unknown point in time by some entities)? “License” seems too legal, and implies either a lifetime license or fixed term license, which is different than a “we’ll shut down game servers whenever we feel like it” “Rent” already has a different meaning that is commonly understood. Is there any suitable existing word? Maybe the awkward phrase “revocable at any time license”?
- diggan 2y ago
  "Lease" perhaps? > lease - a contract renting land, buildings, etc., to another; a contract or instrument conveying property to another for a specified period or for a period determinable at the will of either lessor or lessee in consideration of rent or other compensation.
  - marcellus23 2y ago
    Lease is pretty similar to rent in my mind — you're getting a product for either a fixed period or for as long as you keep making regular payments, neither of which applies here.
    - njbooher 2y ago
      I don't think there'd be consumer confusion if they sold it as an 80 year lease for $60. Maybe backlash.
    - jolmg 2y ago
      > you're getting a product for either a fixed period [...] neither of which applies here. Typically, as a practical matter, the license ends with your death. You can't pass your kindle ebooks and steam games as inheritance like you can with physical books and game discs.
      - marcellus23 2y ago
        Ah, true!
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Mark Lemley's Terms of Use paper (2006) outlines how property law/right (rights of us citizens) have been eroded steadily by contract law (what other people say they can do to us). It's so sad for technology to be so very strongly affiliated with such a critical defilement of the human spirit as this. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917926 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917926 It's so sad that there have been so very few legal efforts to bolster property rights, to reassert some sovereign claim over the things we have about us & that fill our homes. In fact, the opposite keeps happening: anti-circumvention laws spread like the plague they are, making any attempt to exercise one's property right a felony offense. This is murdering the human spirit. Man the toolmaker's god-granted rare ability to understand the world about us, to model & learn, and then to adapt & alter is trapped in an infernal legal hell. What's happening is against my spiritual beliefs & is so terrible to suffer, is such high tragedy.
Molitor5901 2y ago
Good point. It really flies in the face of the First Sale Doctrine when a game company says "you buy the game" when it's just a license, because if you had bought the game, then the FSD would apply (gloriously) in so many ways. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-doctrine https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
drewcoo 2y ago
> I like the idea of reclaiming the word "buy" Yes. Now let's do "steal."
astrostl 2y ago
I feel like a related motion could have a transformative effect on how individuals approach and societies react to "ownership" of financed things (e.g., cars and homes).

by dmoy 2y ago

ravenstine 2y ago

Exactly. Conflating buying with renting indefinitely, without resale ability, is a deliberate way of confusing people for profit. My younger, more naive self, might have been surprised at just how long society has allowed this to slide.

lotsofpulp 2y ago

Keep it simple and just use the word rent. No need to complicate it. “Rent until we choose to not allow you to access it for a one time payment of $x”.

falcolas 2y ago
I'm afraid that the connotations around rent (namely monthly payments) would only encourage the worst publishers to only go further.
- ronsor 2y ago
  No one is renting a game for $70/month.
  - warkdarrior 2y ago
    Not yet!
    - rvnx 2y ago
      Absolutely! Markets evolve, see, for example, nobody was willing to pay on things like Siri, and now millions of folks are spending 25 USD/month on Siri+. EDIT: sorry, just came from the future.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - Foobar8568 2y ago
    Not sure of the cost of MMORPG, but at one stage they were like $12-$14, and Everquest even had a server that was lived for a couple of years, legend, where it was like $40/month, a bit pay-to-win server...I mean with a better CS support.
    - NikkiA 2y ago
      > but at one stage they were like $12-$14 they (the ones that are subscription) still are. And most of them have micro-transactions on top of that as well. Some will give you a (very) limited number of micro-transaction currency-units per month.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    $50 up front and $10/month...
  - strathmeyer 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_pass_(video_games) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Season_pass_(video_games)
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Sellers are smarter than that, they already go as far as they think buyers will let them. It is the buyers who need elucidation.
  - diggan 2y ago
    If you solution involves getting the general population to do something or "be better" somehow, it's not a practical solution.
packetlost 2y ago
Idk, I think "rent" and "license" have different meanings. Modern definitions of "rent" include periodicity into the definition, which is at odds with the "one time until we shut off the servers" definition. I agree with the GP on the terminology for these reasons.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  The whole point is to highlight, for the lay consumer, the periodicity of their purchase, regardless of the periodicity of payments. And hopefully create market pressure for sellers to sell things rather than rent them.
  - packetlost 2y ago
    Fair, I can get behind that reasoning
- scottmf 2y ago
  I “rented” a movie on Apple TV last night. I’m quite confident I won’t be paying again in 30 days :)
  - ianburrell 2y ago
    That is good reason to not use "rent" because it is already used in industry for short fixed-term rental.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      The button should say rent: 1 day or 7 days or “until we choose to no longer give you access”.
      - anticensor 2y ago
        It should say "rent product and purchase accompanying one-time and recurring services".

callc 2y ago

Is there a better word for this sort of transaction (non-resellable, arbitrary cancellation of service at some unknown point in time by some entities)? “License” seems too legal, and implies either a lifetime license or fixed term license, which is different than a “we’ll shut down game servers whenever we feel like it” “Rent” already has a different meaning that is commonly understood. Is there any suitable existing word? Maybe the awkward phrase “revocable at any time license”?

diggan 2y ago
"Lease" perhaps? > lease - a contract renting land, buildings, etc., to another; a contract or instrument conveying property to another for a specified period or for a period determinable at the will of either lessor or lessee in consideration of rent or other compensation.
- marcellus23 2y ago
  Lease is pretty similar to rent in my mind — you're getting a product for either a fixed period or for as long as you keep making regular payments, neither of which applies here.
  - njbooher 2y ago
    I don't think there'd be consumer confusion if they sold it as an 80 year lease for $60. Maybe backlash.
  - jolmg 2y ago
    > you're getting a product for either a fixed period [...] neither of which applies here. Typically, as a practical matter, the license ends with your death. You can't pass your kindle ebooks and steam games as inheritance like you can with physical books and game discs.
    - marcellus23 2y ago
      Ah, true!

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

Mark Lemley's Terms of Use paper (2006) outlines how property law/right (rights of us citizens) have been eroded steadily by contract law (what other people say they can do to us). It's so sad for technology to be so very strongly affiliated with such a critical defilement of the human spirit as this. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917926 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=917926 It's so sad that there have been so very few legal efforts to bolster property rights, to reassert some sovereign claim over the things we have about us & that fill our homes. In fact, the opposite keeps happening: anti-circumvention laws spread like the plague they are, making any attempt to exercise one's property right a felony offense. This is murdering the human spirit. Man the toolmaker's god-granted rare ability to understand the world about us, to model & learn, and then to adapt & alter is trapped in an infernal legal hell. What's happening is against my spiritual beliefs & is so terrible to suffer, is such high tragedy.

Molitor5901 2y ago

Good point. It really flies in the face of the First Sale Doctrine when a game company says "you buy the game" when it's just a license, because if you had bought the game, then the FSD would apply (gloriously) in so many ways. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-doctrine https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...

drewcoo 2y ago

> I like the idea of reclaiming the word "buy" Yes. Now let's do "steal."

astrostl 2y ago

I feel like a related motion could have a transformative effect on how individuals approach and societies react to "ownership" of financed things (e.g., cars and homes).