4 ms·

I agree with everything you've written, but I couldn't disagree more. Once the page loads it draws you in to wanting to visit nearly any of those places they'v

by walru 14y ago

I agree with everything you've written, but I couldn't disagree more. Once the page loads it draws you in to wanting to visit nearly any of those places they've listed. Every shot looks like it was staged by an expert. Or to put it another way, I would rather have someone who's trying to sell me steaks show me pictures of mother-watering, expertly cooked beef, rather than show me a drop down menu of the types of steaks they have. No matter how fast the page loads. As for the Internet Exploder issue. In all honestly, anyone who is still using that browser probably wouldn't be very comfortable using AirBNB on their next vacation anyway.

jacksonmohsenin 14y ago
Couldn't have said it better myself. That is some of the best landing page photography I've ever seen.
- mnicole 14y ago
  At the same time, that's what makes me wonder if it is legitimate or just stock photography. I know that it isn't, but from a first-timer's perspective, it almost seems "too good to be true."
EnderMB 14y ago
Don't get me wrong. I love photography on web pages, but the page itself is similar to so many modern web pages. It's full of JS, it crawls on modern machines and just doesn't look nice enough to justify the size of the page. The page barely works with JS off, so I'd hate to imagine how a user with a screen reader would use it. As for IE7 users, you may be right, but it is my experience that sites that are the size of airbnb can happily spend £10,000 to make your site work in older browsers, because they'll get that amount back from new customers very quickly. Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to.
- Danieru 14y ago
  According to statcounter ie7 was at ~1.5% last month. It dropped a full percentage point from the month before that. Even Firefox 3.6 usage was higher. I think there is value in moving to faster deprecation. Plus even if it does make finicial sense for airbnb it is still a risky investment. Should a facebook, google, or wordpress drop ie7 support hard then all the sudden you've wasted money, developer time, and developer sanity.
  - EnderMB 14y ago
    Statcounter isn't your site. Everyone should look at their own site stats and make the case as to whether legacy browsers should be supported. Regardless, for new projects we still follow the Yahoo Graded Browser Support baseline, like many other agencies do. http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/tutorials/gbs/ http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/tutorials/gbs/
- Evernoob 14y ago
  > Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to. Following that logic, it's poor practice to develop anything in HTML5 since IE8 and below won't support it without a JS shiv that won't work with JS turned off. Half way through 2012 now, I've come to accept that anyone who is using a service like airbnb with IE6, or with JS turned off can just miss out. I'm not prepared to deny the 90%+ users a superior user experience in order to support buggy, insecure ancient browsers that should have died years ago. It's time to look to the future. The IE6 crowd can be happily left behind.
- isnotchicago 14y ago
  "WebAIM survey results [0] reveal 98.6% of screenreader users have javascript enabled," via Paul Irish [1]. [0] http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey4/#javascript http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey4/#javascript [1] http://paulirish.com/2012/accessibility-and-developers/ http://paulirish.com/2012/accessibility-and-developers/
- bicknergseng 14y ago
  "Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to." I would argue that it is poor practice to support them. First is cost. Even if it only takes 10 grand to make a site "functional" in x browser, rebuilding an application to fully work with ie7 does not. If it takes 15-20% (or greater) more development time to add in support for IE7, but IE7 does not provide 15-20% increased revenues (it won't, unless you're making business software specifically for tech-agnostic corporations). You might say oh, it doesn't take 15-20% more time... just use jQuery and magic will happen. No man. It takes much more time. Second is more philosophical. Assuming you are a consumer focused company like AirBnB, you customers are fully capable of upgrading to a new browser. There are no IT limitations on a personal computer. It takes all of 5 minutes and is completely painless. Stop coddling IE7 users; it is obsolete. As far as pages working without JS: this is 2012, not 2002. If you still treat today like you treated 10 years ago, you really have no business complaining about anything on the internet. The internet is not for you, and neither is a site like AirBnB. If you think I'm being overly harsh, see my last paragraph. Installing FF, Chrome, or IE8/9 takes all of 4 clicks.
  - EnderMB 14y ago
    Those sound like nothing but excuses for being a terrible web developer. "First is cost. Even if it only takes 10 grand to make a site "functional" in x browser, rebuilding an application to fully work with ie7 does not. If it takes 15-20% (or greater) more development time to add in support for IE7, but IE7 does not provide 15-20% increased revenues (it won't, unless you're making business software specifically for tech-agnostic corporations). You might say oh, it doesn't take 15-20% more time... just use jQuery and magic will happen. No man. It takes much more time." Oh man, there is so much that is wrong with this comment. First of all, users are more willing to buy from a service that works compared to one that, well, doesn't. That's just common sense. Secondly, if you really think that sprinkling some jQuery over a site will just make it work then I really hope that you aren't a web developer, because that mentality is exactly what is wrong with many websites out there today. "Second is more philosophical. Assuming you are a consumer focused company like AirBnB, you customers are fully capable of upgrading to a new browser. There are no IT limitations on a personal computer. It takes all of 5 minutes and is completely painless. Stop coddling IE7 users; it is obsolete." Again, if you are incapable of supporting older browsers it's probably because you're a terrible developer. Regardless, there is no philosophical debate here. Users can use whatever the hell they want and it is not your business to tell that what to use. It's entirely up to the client, and if there are users that are using IE6-7 it's probably because they are on old hardware or a machine that isn't theirs (i.e. a work or library machine). The limitation on a personal computer is just that. If your site takes ages to load are you going to suggest to the user to get a better internet connection or to buy a new computer? "As far as pages working without JS: this is 2012, not 2002. If you still treat today like you treated 10 years ago, you really have no business complaining about anything on the internet. The internet is not for you, and neither is a site like AirBnB. If you think I'm being overly harsh, see my last paragraph. Installing FF, Chrome, or IE8/9 takes all of 4 clicks." So, where do users limited to screen readers fall into your "the Internet is not for you" speech? The reason many of us develop solutions that work across legacy browsers and screen readers is because we have the experience to be conscious of those who CAN'T view the web as you'd like to. Again, it is not your place to dictate what users should be using. Regardless of their lack of browser support it is a wasteful site that is entirely dependent on JS and as such it is completely inaccessible. It's comments like yours that give me "the fear" when talking about web development.

by walru 14y ago

jacksonmohsenin 14y ago

Couldn't have said it better myself. That is some of the best landing page photography I've ever seen.

mnicole 14y ago
At the same time, that's what makes me wonder if it is legitimate or just stock photography. I know that it isn't, but from a first-timer's perspective, it almost seems "too good to be true."

EnderMB 14y ago

Don't get me wrong. I love photography on web pages, but the page itself is similar to so many modern web pages. It's full of JS, it crawls on modern machines and just doesn't look nice enough to justify the size of the page. The page barely works with JS off, so I'd hate to imagine how a user with a screen reader would use it. As for IE7 users, you may be right, but it is my experience that sites that are the size of airbnb can happily spend £10,000 to make your site work in older browsers, because they'll get that amount back from new customers very quickly. Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to.

Danieru 14y ago
According to statcounter ie7 was at ~1.5% last month. It dropped a full percentage point from the month before that. Even Firefox 3.6 usage was higher. I think there is value in moving to faster deprecation. Plus even if it does make finicial sense for airbnb it is still a risky investment. Should a facebook, google, or wordpress drop ie7 support hard then all the sudden you've wasted money, developer time, and developer sanity.
- EnderMB 14y ago
  Statcounter isn't your site. Everyone should look at their own site stats and make the case as to whether legacy browsers should be supported. Regardless, for new projects we still follow the Yahoo Graded Browser Support baseline, like many other agencies do. http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/tutorials/gbs/ http://yuilibrary.com/yui/docs/tutorials/gbs/
Evernoob 14y ago
> Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to. Following that logic, it's poor practice to develop anything in HTML5 since IE8 and below won't support it without a JS shiv that won't work with JS turned off. Half way through 2012 now, I've come to accept that anyone who is using a service like airbnb with IE6, or with JS turned off can just miss out. I'm not prepared to deny the 90%+ users a superior user experience in order to support buggy, insecure ancient browsers that should have died years ago. It's time to look to the future. The IE6 crowd can be happily left behind.
isnotchicago 14y ago
"WebAIM survey results [0] reveal 98.6% of screenreader users have javascript enabled," via Paul Irish [1]. [0] http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey4/#javascript http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey4/#javascript [1] http://paulirish.com/2012/accessibility-and-developers/ http://paulirish.com/2012/accessibility-and-developers/
bicknergseng 14y ago
"Whether you like to develop for legacy browsers or not is irrelevant. It's poor practice not to." I would argue that it is poor practice to support them. First is cost. Even if it only takes 10 grand to make a site "functional" in x browser, rebuilding an application to fully work with ie7 does not. If it takes 15-20% (or greater) more development time to add in support for IE7, but IE7 does not provide 15-20% increased revenues (it won't, unless you're making business software specifically for tech-agnostic corporations). You might say oh, it doesn't take 15-20% more time... just use jQuery and magic will happen. No man. It takes much more time. Second is more philosophical. Assuming you are a consumer focused company like AirBnB, you customers are fully capable of upgrading to a new browser. There are no IT limitations on a personal computer. It takes all of 5 minutes and is completely painless. Stop coddling IE7 users; it is obsolete. As far as pages working without JS: this is 2012, not 2002. If you still treat today like you treated 10 years ago, you really have no business complaining about anything on the internet. The internet is not for you, and neither is a site like AirBnB. If you think I'm being overly harsh, see my last paragraph. Installing FF, Chrome, or IE8/9 takes all of 4 clicks.
- EnderMB 14y ago
  Those sound like nothing but excuses for being a terrible web developer. "First is cost. Even if it only takes 10 grand to make a site "functional" in x browser, rebuilding an application to fully work with ie7 does not. If it takes 15-20% (or greater) more development time to add in support for IE7, but IE7 does not provide 15-20% increased revenues (it won't, unless you're making business software specifically for tech-agnostic corporations). You might say oh, it doesn't take 15-20% more time... just use jQuery and magic will happen. No man. It takes much more time." Oh man, there is so much that is wrong with this comment. First of all, users are more willing to buy from a service that works compared to one that, well, doesn't. That's just common sense. Secondly, if you really think that sprinkling some jQuery over a site will just make it work then I really hope that you aren't a web developer, because that mentality is exactly what is wrong with many websites out there today. "Second is more philosophical. Assuming you are a consumer focused company like AirBnB, you customers are fully capable of upgrading to a new browser. There are no IT limitations on a personal computer. It takes all of 5 minutes and is completely painless. Stop coddling IE7 users; it is obsolete." Again, if you are incapable of supporting older browsers it's probably because you're a terrible developer. Regardless, there is no philosophical debate here. Users can use whatever the hell they want and it is not your business to tell that what to use. It's entirely up to the client, and if there are users that are using IE6-7 it's probably because they are on old hardware or a machine that isn't theirs (i.e. a work or library machine). The limitation on a personal computer is just that. If your site takes ages to load are you going to suggest to the user to get a better internet connection or to buy a new computer? "As far as pages working without JS: this is 2012, not 2002. If you still treat today like you treated 10 years ago, you really have no business complaining about anything on the internet. The internet is not for you, and neither is a site like AirBnB. If you think I'm being overly harsh, see my last paragraph. Installing FF, Chrome, or IE8/9 takes all of 4 clicks." So, where do users limited to screen readers fall into your "the Internet is not for you" speech? The reason many of us develop solutions that work across legacy browsers and screen readers is because we have the experience to be conscious of those who CAN'T view the web as you'd like to. Again, it is not your place to dictate what users should be using. Regardless of their lack of browser support it is a wasteful site that is entirely dependent on JS and as such it is completely inaccessible. It's comments like yours that give me "the fear" when talking about web development.