4 ms·

I'm not convinced you need cushioning. I spend zero on running shoes, and I've run two marathons like this.

by hilux 2y ago

jlarocco 2y ago
I'm convinced you don't need it, but my shin splints disagree, and I'm happy to buy new shoes after 300-500 miles.
- hilux 2y ago
  Interesting you mention shin splits - those (and ITBS) were my crippling complaint for 15 years, before I tried barefooting, basically in desperation.
  - funcDropShadow 2y ago
    Can you recommend any good resource on how to start seriously with barefoot running or walking?
    - throw_rand_23 2y ago
      [dead]
    - fat_cantor 2y ago
      Anatomy for Runners by Dicharry
    - hilux 2y ago
      I could be biased, but I like the book Run Barefoot Run Healthy. Also Barefoot Ken Bob's book and website. There isn't much to learn - it's mainly a question of unlearning bad habits picked up through a lifetime of wearing unnatural built-up shoes, plus allowing the feet to slowly strengthen. If an able-bodied person spent a lifetime using crutches, the adaption to walking freely would take some time. For inspiration, google: barefoot romero caltech saxton
      - fat_cantor 2y ago
        There isn't much to learn if you have proper (or at least bilaterally symmetric) range of motion in your muscles and joints. If, instead, you have long-term injuries, tissue damage, etc., that have led to patterns of movement that are causing degeneration and inefficient patterns of movement, then you basically need to learn how to fix those problems, then relearn to walk. There are complex sequences of neuromuscular cues that healthy people possess but don't think about consciously, just like the ability to recognize objects. I needed to learn a LOT about walking and running in every sense of the word, in addition to slowly gaining foot strength. It would not have happened if I had taken a passive approach. It was more like programming a computer to recognize objects from scratch in R or C (whichever you believe to be the pirate's favorite programming language...).
    - panda888888 2y ago
      Honestly, it's not hard. Just buy a pair of wider toe box shoes, nothing too extreme or minimalist, and start wearing them for normal everyday tasks like going to the grocery store, then build from there. I recommend Lems (I like the Primal Zen) or Altras (I like the Lone Peak style). After a little while you'll have more foot strength and can start working out in them and/or transition to wearing barefoot shoes 100% of the time. It takes some time to build the foot strength so I wouldn't go too minimalist to start.
  - jlarocco 2y ago
    Honestly, I don't remember it being a problem when I was younger, but after taking a few years off and getting back to it, it's been an issue. I wasn't having much luck finding the cause until a coworker recommended new shoes. Since then I haven't had a problem. I know it doesn't make sense, people ran barefoot for millenium, but for me it's been worth it.
xarope 2y ago
Counterpoint: I've run 7 marathons in 7 consecutive days, whilst wearing some low-profile altras, and after the mid-way, I was switching to more cushier ones.
- hilux 2y ago
  I'm not disputing that cushioning "feels" comfortable. So does Vicodin. But if cushioned shoes work well for you, I wouldn't expect you to change anything. Invest in HOKA. My audience is all the runners who have problems, and keep turning up the dial on cushioning, orthotics, etc. ... before finally giving up on running by their forties. Or they run on NSAIDs and trash their kidneys.
  - xarope 2y ago
    I understand your fascination with barefoot training, but it is a bit extremist. I too have tried VFFs and other barefoot shoes (I competed in a deadlift competition once, wearing merrell minumus), and do a lot of gym stuff without shoes, and there are pros and cons to the approach. If there's one thing barefoot running does emphasis though, is improvements in foot strike. If you can carry that over to more cushioned shoes I believe that to be a win-win, versus a dogmatic view of barefoot or nothing.
    - hilux 2y ago
      That's rather patronizing. I'm not "fascinated" with running barefoot - I do run barefoot when I otherwise would not be running, due to chronic injuries. And I'm still running when many of my peers no longer run - they complain about their knees or whatever.
  - lillecarl 2y ago
    I wear boat shoes daily, they're essentially a flat piece of rubber. Gives me the sensation of being "half barefoot" (things don't hurt but I feel every little piece of gravel and crevasse I walk on. I'm also 78kg so I don't know if anything I wear or don't wear on my feet really matters, but it feels good and they last for ages since it's just suede/leather stitched down into rubber.
LandR 2y ago
In regular training shoes I can barely run a mile without getting some pretty bad pains in the side of my knee. With good cushioned running shoes I can easily do 10-12 miles pain free. I'm assuming it's a form thing, and that the running shoes just somehow naturally give me a better form, so I could maybe fix by learning how to run in normal non-running shoes, but I'm lazy and would rather just pay a few hundred every few months.
- hotspot_one 2y ago
  If it is a form thing, it might be that the running shoes naturally encourage a poor form (a form that only works with them, vs a presumably more 'natural' form of running closer to barefoot). Doesn't matter. The main thing is you are out and running. And if that "costs" a few hundred every few months, and if you can afford it, why not? Optimize for joy.
dillydogg 2y ago
Do you use a zero drop shoe, barefoot style shoe, or run truly barefoot? I have noticed that I have been cranking up the cushioning as I have increased my mileage, but I also have found that my favorite sandals are zero drop Bedrocks.
- fat_cantor 2y ago
  Another vote for Bedrocks, I had put maybe 1000 walking/hiking miles on mine before I had to glue the soles back together last week. They're the only shoes I've bought retail in the last decade, the others are all thrift store purchases. I suspect that I would want some cushioning if I were a distance runner.
- hilux 2y ago
  I run without anything on my feet. I tried everything else before arriving at this, and it's worked for 10+ years and two marathons. Running form: think unicycle, not pogo stick.
snapcaster 2y ago
I thought this, but even with efforts into my running technique I wasn't able to get rid of my knee pain until I tried Hokas. I've done all the "normie" stuff a casual would come across on youtube, do you have other tips on what I might be doing wrong or could do to get off the "cushion crutch"?

I'm not convinced you need cushioning. I spend zero on running shoes, and I've run two marathons like this.

by hilux 2y ago

I'm not convinced you need cushioning. I spend zero on running shoes, and I've run two marathons like this.

jlarocco 2y ago

I'm convinced you don't need it, but my shin splints disagree, and I'm happy to buy new shoes after 300-500 miles.

hilux 2y ago
Interesting you mention shin splits - those (and ITBS) were my crippling complaint for 15 years, before I tried barefooting, basically in desperation.
- funcDropShadow 2y ago
  Can you recommend any good resource on how to start seriously with barefoot running or walking?
  - throw_rand_23 2y ago
    [dead]
  - fat_cantor 2y ago
    Anatomy for Runners by Dicharry
  - hilux 2y ago
    I could be biased, but I like the book Run Barefoot Run Healthy. Also Barefoot Ken Bob's book and website. There isn't much to learn - it's mainly a question of unlearning bad habits picked up through a lifetime of wearing unnatural built-up shoes, plus allowing the feet to slowly strengthen. If an able-bodied person spent a lifetime using crutches, the adaption to walking freely would take some time. For inspiration, google: barefoot romero caltech saxton
    - fat_cantor 2y ago
      There isn't much to learn if you have proper (or at least bilaterally symmetric) range of motion in your muscles and joints. If, instead, you have long-term injuries, tissue damage, etc., that have led to patterns of movement that are causing degeneration and inefficient patterns of movement, then you basically need to learn how to fix those problems, then relearn to walk. There are complex sequences of neuromuscular cues that healthy people possess but don't think about consciously, just like the ability to recognize objects. I needed to learn a LOT about walking and running in every sense of the word, in addition to slowly gaining foot strength. It would not have happened if I had taken a passive approach. It was more like programming a computer to recognize objects from scratch in R or C (whichever you believe to be the pirate's favorite programming language...).
  - panda888888 2y ago
    Honestly, it's not hard. Just buy a pair of wider toe box shoes, nothing too extreme or minimalist, and start wearing them for normal everyday tasks like going to the grocery store, then build from there. I recommend Lems (I like the Primal Zen) or Altras (I like the Lone Peak style). After a little while you'll have more foot strength and can start working out in them and/or transition to wearing barefoot shoes 100% of the time. It takes some time to build the foot strength so I wouldn't go too minimalist to start.
- jlarocco 2y ago
  Honestly, I don't remember it being a problem when I was younger, but after taking a few years off and getting back to it, it's been an issue. I wasn't having much luck finding the cause until a coworker recommended new shoes. Since then I haven't had a problem. I know it doesn't make sense, people ran barefoot for millenium, but for me it's been worth it.

xarope 2y ago

Counterpoint: I've run 7 marathons in 7 consecutive days, whilst wearing some low-profile altras, and after the mid-way, I was switching to more cushier ones.

hilux 2y ago
I'm not disputing that cushioning "feels" comfortable. So does Vicodin. But if cushioned shoes work well for you, I wouldn't expect you to change anything. Invest in HOKA. My audience is all the runners who have problems, and keep turning up the dial on cushioning, orthotics, etc. ... before finally giving up on running by their forties. Or they run on NSAIDs and trash their kidneys.
- xarope 2y ago
  I understand your fascination with barefoot training, but it is a bit extremist. I too have tried VFFs and other barefoot shoes (I competed in a deadlift competition once, wearing merrell minumus), and do a lot of gym stuff without shoes, and there are pros and cons to the approach. If there's one thing barefoot running does emphasis though, is improvements in foot strike. If you can carry that over to more cushioned shoes I believe that to be a win-win, versus a dogmatic view of barefoot or nothing.
  - hilux 2y ago
    That's rather patronizing. I'm not "fascinated" with running barefoot - I do run barefoot when I otherwise would not be running, due to chronic injuries. And I'm still running when many of my peers no longer run - they complain about their knees or whatever.
- lillecarl 2y ago
  I wear boat shoes daily, they're essentially a flat piece of rubber. Gives me the sensation of being "half barefoot" (things don't hurt but I feel every little piece of gravel and crevasse I walk on. I'm also 78kg so I don't know if anything I wear or don't wear on my feet really matters, but it feels good and they last for ages since it's just suede/leather stitched down into rubber.

LandR 2y ago

In regular training shoes I can barely run a mile without getting some pretty bad pains in the side of my knee. With good cushioned running shoes I can easily do 10-12 miles pain free. I'm assuming it's a form thing, and that the running shoes just somehow naturally give me a better form, so I could maybe fix by learning how to run in normal non-running shoes, but I'm lazy and would rather just pay a few hundred every few months.

hotspot_one 2y ago
If it is a form thing, it might be that the running shoes naturally encourage a poor form (a form that only works with them, vs a presumably more 'natural' form of running closer to barefoot). Doesn't matter. The main thing is you are out and running. And if that "costs" a few hundred every few months, and if you can afford it, why not? Optimize for joy.

dillydogg 2y ago

Do you use a zero drop shoe, barefoot style shoe, or run truly barefoot? I have noticed that I have been cranking up the cushioning as I have increased my mileage, but I also have found that my favorite sandals are zero drop Bedrocks.

fat_cantor 2y ago
Another vote for Bedrocks, I had put maybe 1000 walking/hiking miles on mine before I had to glue the soles back together last week. They're the only shoes I've bought retail in the last decade, the others are all thrift store purchases. I suspect that I would want some cushioning if I were a distance runner.
hilux 2y ago
I run without anything on my feet. I tried everything else before arriving at this, and it's worked for 10+ years and two marathons. Running form: think unicycle, not pogo stick.

snapcaster 2y ago

I thought this, but even with efforts into my running technique I wasn't able to get rid of my knee pain until I tried Hokas. I've done all the "normie" stuff a casual would come across on youtube, do you have other tips on what I might be doing wrong or could do to get off the "cushion crutch"?