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Thanks for your perspective. It's interesting to hear a different take on this. I do think there's no right or wrong answer with these things. Everyone will ha

by imiric 2y ago

Thanks for your perspective. It's interesting to hear a different take on this. I do think there's no right or wrong answer with these things. Everyone will have different opinions about their ideal workflows, especially senior engineers. The important thing is to find a good balance that everyone on the team is satisfied with, but there will always be concessions, as in any relationship. What I have found, though, is that the more uncertainties a workflow has, the higher the chances of misunderstanding, or someone not following it in the way someone else thinks they should. So with the way "ship, show, ask" is described, and what you mention here, is that there are many constraints, and decisions to be made about what constitutes an "interesting" change, or what is worthy to be shipped without a CR and what isn't. If the team is mostly senior, and there's a lot of trust involved, this workflow might work, and it might reduce the friction of blocking CRs. But there are a lot of variables involved there. OTOH, by always requiring CRs and approvals for shipping, there are far less decisions to be made. The workflow is simple, fixed and known to everyone. Sure, sometimes CRs step into nitpicky territory, but this is usually solved by having some conventions, such as making clear what is a nitpick, what is a minor/major suggestion, and what is a blocker. This way nitpicks and minor suggestions can be safely ignored (as long as they're ackgnowledged in some way), and they're not blockers for merging. In practice I've found that while this workflow does take considerable time and effort, in the vast majority of cases it leads to higher quality code. Even addressing nitpicks and typo fixes is an improvement in most cases. These can be easily automated by suggestions in GitHub, which can be batched and committed directly from the web UI, so it doesn't take much effort at all. > Last, post merge reviews can still be done by the maintainers to ensure things are going smoothly. Sure, but is this diligently done? And how well does it scale if the project has many contributors, but few maintainers? Placing the burden on maintainers to ensure certain quality standards is unrealistic. Moreover, it assumes that maintainers have the final say in these matters, instead of their changes also being worthy of discussion, which happens during a CR. I think that the responsibility for ensuring things are running smoothly should be shared by every member of the team, including external contributors. > Most projects I've seen are written quickly and in large chunks. If they are reviewed at all, it is a lot of 2000 line "LGTM", zero comment reviews. Those are examples of not doing CRs correctly, not a testament that CRs are not worth the time and effort. You can just as well run into this issue with the SSA workflow. As with any issue with team dynamics, this should be resolved by communicating and aligning on core values and practices the team finds important. > The CR debates the absolute best naming, original intent, spending magnitudes more time than was originally put into the code in the first place. Yes, this is to be expected. It takes much more effort to read and understand code than it does to write it. It takes additional time and effort to leave a written comprehensible review, and communicate all of this asynchronously. This scales linearly for every member in the team, and there's no way around it. But the question is whether deciding to invest the time and effort in a well established CR process ultimately results in higher quality software being shipped. In my experience, it does, and it's worth it. That said, CRs are not the only or, even failproof, method of quality assurance. As mentioned in the SSA article, pair programming is another method, but it has its own drawbacks and limitations. All of these things help, and are best used in combination. They can be uncomfortable, tedious and seem pointless at times, but deciding to not do them because of this is doing a disservice to the final product.

seadan83 2y ago
> what constitutes an "interesting" change, or what is worthy to be shipped without a CR FWIW, I have not seen much trouble in the ambiguity. Things like "move method" refactor, typo fix, add additional test cases, comment clarification, are just shipped. If the update makes an important clarification on a comment that the team should know about, show is interesting. If the code fixes a bug, would be mentioned in a stand up- show is good. Ask is good for a large refactor where there is room for error, when something does not seem clean, merits any type of double check or second opinion, or and especially when it is a first foray into a different part of the codebase. > Sure, but is (post merge reviews) diligently done? The beauty I would say is that it does not have to be diligently done. Feature, not a bug. If the lead maintainers are super busy, it is okay. Perhaps they will have time later and can do things in bulk, or even not at all. The process is no worse and does not stop when the majority of lead maintainers are on vacation. Interesting changes are still notified via email (thru PRs). This highlights what a person should be looking at. I think this attitude gives more trust to the team and contributors. It is not the responsibility of just the maintainers and seniors to (pre or post) review everything. No blame game of: "how did this bug get through, and more importantly, how did it get through review??" > And how well does it scale if the project has many contributors, but few maintainers Good question. Offhand I would say no worse. Contributors would all be required to ask, which is no different than 'review everything.' The difference would be for maintainers, they would not be required to always have other maintainers do CR in every case. A second potential difference, contributors might be promoted more quickly to have write permission. That in turn helps scale the efforts of the maintainers. I think this shines on the other extreme when there are very few maintainers. OSS requiring week long turn around times will have trouble onboarding contributors to be regular maintainers. In industry, trusting developers relatively quickly I think is healthy. The mentality to be looking to give people write permission sooner rather than later IMO is good. > Those are examples of not doing CRs correctly, not a testament that CRs are not worth the time and effort. My apologies for not conveying the example clearly. The examples I'm thinking of usually had no review. These are older code bases written long ago before CR. Or, these are startup quality code bases where a few founders jammed out tons of code. Or, code that was put out during a crunch, almost always successive crunches, where the constant pressure to ship was everything. Or, some Greenfield project that was jammed out and then handed over for maintenance and enhancement. Just large codebase that were never great. I'm also implying there is often a different standard for originally authored code compared to changing existing code. My point is there is a quality bar that is suddenly higher, a lot higher, than the existing code. > But the question is whether deciding to invest the time and effort in a well established CR process ultimately results in higher quality software being shipped. In my experience, it does, and it's worth it. I agree, though not sure if actually always worth it. Projects are rarely labelled a failure, but many are. That can manifest as simply too much time going by without enough being shipped. Though, good CR culture is indeed very valuable. I think it is more an exception than the rule. I think that complements SSA at the same time. A strong CR culture with review everything might be hard to distinguish from SSA. In that sense, "ask" could be thought of as "second opinion." When a team gets crunched, there is more flexibility. Or, if the team is immature w.r.t to CR, or if there is a significant lack of reviewers- SSA removes barriers. The idea is to capture 95% of the benefit of CR with 50% the cost. > Sure, sometimes CRs step into nitpicky territory Pointing out typos IMO is useful. Though, I've learned to personally delete any CR feedback I write that starts with "nitpick." I no longer believe it to actually be all that helpful or productive. It is a signal that a style discussion is due. It is important I think to respect that a CR is a blocking thing. Keeping someone an extra whatever amount of time for nitpicks is missing the bigger picture of what is important IMO ---- I very much appreciate the dialog and perspective! Thank you for your considered feedback here. I largely agree with your points, particularly the ones I did not respond to. I suffer a bit too from the lesson of things taking too long is it's own failure mode. Success is not at all guaranteed, even if quality and solid code is shipped. At the same time, solid and quality code is required to scale, and is required for most success. That is to say that projects do fail very much in spite of quality engineering.

by imiric 2y ago

seadan83 2y ago

> what constitutes an "interesting" change, or what is worthy to be shipped without a CR FWIW, I have not seen much trouble in the ambiguity. Things like "move method" refactor, typo fix, add additional test cases, comment clarification, are just shipped. If the update makes an important clarification on a comment that the team should know about, show is interesting. If the code fixes a bug, would be mentioned in a stand up- show is good. Ask is good for a large refactor where there is room for error, when something does not seem clean, merits any type of double check or second opinion, or and especially when it is a first foray into a different part of the codebase. > Sure, but is (post merge reviews) diligently done? The beauty I would say is that it does not have to be diligently done. Feature, not a bug. If the lead maintainers are super busy, it is okay. Perhaps they will have time later and can do things in bulk, or even not at all. The process is no worse and does not stop when the majority of lead maintainers are on vacation. Interesting changes are still notified via email (thru PRs). This highlights what a person should be looking at. I think this attitude gives more trust to the team and contributors. It is not the responsibility of just the maintainers and seniors to (pre or post) review everything. No blame game of: "how did this bug get through, and more importantly, how did it get through review??" > And how well does it scale if the project has many contributors, but few maintainers Good question. Offhand I would say no worse. Contributors would all be required to ask, which is no different than 'review everything.' The difference would be for maintainers, they would not be required to always have other maintainers do CR in every case. A second potential difference, contributors might be promoted more quickly to have write permission. That in turn helps scale the efforts of the maintainers. I think this shines on the other extreme when there are very few maintainers. OSS requiring week long turn around times will have trouble onboarding contributors to be regular maintainers. In industry, trusting developers relatively quickly I think is healthy. The mentality to be looking to give people write permission sooner rather than later IMO is good. > Those are examples of not doing CRs correctly, not a testament that CRs are not worth the time and effort. My apologies for not conveying the example clearly. The examples I'm thinking of usually had no review. These are older code bases written long ago before CR. Or, these are startup quality code bases where a few founders jammed out tons of code. Or, code that was put out during a crunch, almost always successive crunches, where the constant pressure to ship was everything. Or, some Greenfield project that was jammed out and then handed over for maintenance and enhancement. Just large codebase that were never great. I'm also implying there is often a different standard for originally authored code compared to changing existing code. My point is there is a quality bar that is suddenly higher, a lot higher, than the existing code. > But the question is whether deciding to invest the time and effort in a well established CR process ultimately results in higher quality software being shipped. In my experience, it does, and it's worth it. I agree, though not sure if actually always worth it. Projects are rarely labelled a failure, but many are. That can manifest as simply too much time going by without enough being shipped. Though, good CR culture is indeed very valuable. I think it is more an exception than the rule. I think that complements SSA at the same time. A strong CR culture with review everything might be hard to distinguish from SSA. In that sense, "ask" could be thought of as "second opinion." When a team gets crunched, there is more flexibility. Or, if the team is immature w.r.t to CR, or if there is a significant lack of reviewers- SSA removes barriers. The idea is to capture 95% of the benefit of CR with 50% the cost. > Sure, sometimes CRs step into nitpicky territory Pointing out typos IMO is useful. Though, I've learned to personally delete any CR feedback I write that starts with "nitpick." I no longer believe it to actually be all that helpful or productive. It is a signal that a style discussion is due. It is important I think to respect that a CR is a blocking thing. Keeping someone an extra whatever amount of time for nitpicks is missing the bigger picture of what is important IMO ---- I very much appreciate the dialog and perspective! Thank you for your considered feedback here. I largely agree with your points, particularly the ones I did not respond to. I suffer a bit too from the lesson of things taking too long is it's own failure mode. Success is not at all guaranteed, even if quality and solid code is shipped. At the same time, solid and quality code is required to scale, and is required for most success. That is to say that projects do fail very much in spite of quality engineering.